Struggling to find Sgt Taylor, observer in 11 Sqn RAF

[Buffnut453]

One of my relatives was a pilot flying Bristol Fighters on 11 Sqn towards the end of the war.  His regular observer was Sgt Taylor but I'm struggling to track him down.  

 

An accident report from 17 Oct 1918 lists him as 205786 Sgt Mech E C Taylor while other Sqn records list him as 3786 Sgt C H Taylor.  Neither of these combinations bring up a service record in either Ancestry or FindMyPast.  

 

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?  

 

Many thanks,
Mark

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

One of my relatives was a pilot flying Bristol Fighters on 11 Sqn towards the end of the war.  His regular observer was Sgt Taylor but I'm struggling to track him down.  

 

An accident report from 17 Oct 1918 lists him as 205786 Sgt Mech E C Taylor while other Sqn records list him as 3786 Sgt C H Taylor.  Neither of these combinations bring up a service record in either Ancestry or FindMyPast.  

 

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?  

 

Many thanks,
Mark

 

   Go to the excellent "airhistory.org" on Google- a first class database of Great War flying stuff. There is a database of stuff about RFC/RAF personnel.  If zapped, there are 2 references to 205786 E.C.Taylor, 11 Squadron - a crash report being the main one. These have their National Archives references as well, so it will lead you to other stuff. Do not forget that the airhistory.org refs. should get you into the accident cards at the RAF Museum at Hendon- more details of the crash. As a rule of thumb, the RFC/ nascent RAF seem to have kept more records of lsot or damaged aircraft than lost or damaged personnel.

 

    Not too sure about the 3786 references-but the service number indicates someone serving before the introduction of 6 figure service numbers (Broadly,1916). There is a Sergeant Taylor also listed as coming from the Kent Yeomanry-worth seeing if it's him

[nieuport11]

The CH Taylor is probably #3728, findmypast ref AIR 79/49/3728

 

The EC Taylor could be AIR 79/49/3736

 

There was also a JR Taylor with 11Sq, killed in 1919 ref AIR 79/2179/242044

 

I've checked the casualty report and it is definitely 205786 EC Taylor

[David_Underdown]

205786 I would have expected to previously been F5786 RNAS, but I can't find a record under that number and name either in ADM 188. There's an Ernest Charles Taylor F6329, but F5786 seems to be Vincent George Macario http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/D6803973.  AIR 79/1852/205786 shows in Discovery as "Record Not Available" http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C12238460 which may suggest he continued serving post-war (since he doesn't seem to have been commissioned).

 

There's also John Roy Taylor ADM 188/599/19850, AIR 79/1980/219850 "Record not Available"

 

242044 was previously ADM 188/634/42044 James Roach Taylor

[Buffnut453]

Ok...made a wee bit of progress.

 

There's a Cecil Horace Taylor, ex-RNAS 3786 with the RAF service number 203786 who joined 11 Sqn on 16 Sep 1918 and left the Sqn at the same time as my relative, Sgt James Gamble.  He's initially listed as an air gunner but later remustered to become an Observer (which, presumably, entitled him to wear the Observer wing).  

 

I wonder if there's confusion in the accident record (which I also have) given that 205786 is listed as Vincent George Macario.  I also find it intriguing that there's only one digit difference between the accident record service number and that of Cecil Horace Taylor as noted above.  That still doesn't explain why the accident report refers to EC Taylor and not CH Taylor.  

 

'Tis a puzzlement.

[Buffnut453]

2 hours ago, nieuport11 said:

The CH Taylor is probably #3728, findmypast ref AIR 79/49/3728

 

We can remove CH Taylor #3728 from the list.  According to his service record, he was a turner and made the rank of Cpl.  Also, he only served on 13 Sqn (ironically, that's my old Sqn!) and not 11 Sqn.

Edited 30 April , 2018 by Buffnut453

[josquin]

Mark,

I suggest that the Sgt. Taylor, 11 Squadron observer, was 203786 Cecil Horace Taylor, AIR 79/1837/203786.  The single digit difference for "205786 Sgt. E.C. Taylor" is

significant, but errors in transcribing initials were not at all uncommon in the R.A.F., especially for casualty reports involving minor injury (in this instance, "OK").

Consider some of the other candidates discussed in prior posts:

206329 (RNAS F6329) Ernest Charles Taylor, was a Corporal Mechanic whose RNAS/RAF posting was as a Rigger, Airship; attested 1 September 1917.

3736 Ernest Cecil Taylor, was a Sgt Clerk (Stores); civilian occupation, clerk; attested 16 February 1915; born 1896, Sussex.

32159 Ernest Cyril Taylor, was an Air Mechanic 1st Class Fitter; civilian occupation motor engineer; attested 12 June 1916; born 1889.

319891 Edward Cunningham Taylor, served in the infantry (West Kent Yeomanry 1328, Private & 270731 West Kent Regiment, Private) prior to his posting as a

           Cadet with the R.A.F. (so he has two service records, AIR 76/496/126 & AIR 79/2767/319891) and he had no Other Ranks service.  He was granted an

           honorary commission as a 2nd Lieutenant to have effect as of the date of his demobilisation (London Gazette 11 May 1920, issue 31894, p. 5364).

           Born 20 September 1896, registered at Hollingbourne, Kent, he was a farmer when he attested in 1914, and died in 1985, registered at Tunbridge Wells, Kent.

319268 E.C. Taylor, not in the RAF Muster Roll and no dates listed for postings.

203786 Cecil Horace Taylor attested 1 September 1915, was born in Sussex, in 1888, and was a "music hall artist" prior to the war.  The RAF Muster Roll for

April 1918 lists him as an Aerial Gunner/Gunlayer, and you stated that he qualified as an Observer subsequently.  He is the only airman who was both an aerial gunner

and an observer, and he served in 11 Squadron during the appropriate time.  The discrepant initials and service numbers remain problematic, but I suggest

that 203786 Cecil Horace Taylor is the strongest candidate for James Gamble's 11 Squadron Observer.

Josquin

 

 

Edited 1 May , 2018 by josquin

[Buffnut453]

3 hours ago, josquin said:

Mark,

I suggest that the Sgt. Taylor, 11 Squadron observer, was 203786 Cecil Horace Taylor, AIR 79/1837/203786.  The single digit difference for "205786 Sgt. E.C. Taylor" is

significant, but errors in transcribing initials were not at all uncommon in the R.A.F., especially for casualty reports involving minor injury (in this instance, "OK").

Consider some of the other candidates discussed in prior posts:

206329 (RNAS F6329) Ernest Charles Taylor, was a Corporal Mechanic whose RNAS/RAF posting was as a Rigger, Airship; attested 1 September 1917.

3736 Ernest Cecil Taylor, was a Sgt Clerk (Stores); civilian occupation, clerk; attested 16 February 1915; born 1896, Sussex.

32159 Ernest Cyril Taylor, was an Air Mechanic 1st Class Fitter; civilian occupation motor engineer; attested 12 June 1916; born 1889.

319891 Edward Cunningham Taylor, served in the infantry (West Kent Yeomanry 1328, Private & 270731 West Kent Regiment, Private) prior to his posting as a

           Cadet with the R.A.F. (so he has two service records, AIR 76/496/126 & AIR 79/2767/319891) and he had no Other Ranks service.  He was granted an

           honorary commission as a 2nd Lieutenant to have effect as of the date of his demobilisation (London Gazette 11 May 1920, issue 31894, p. 5364).

           Born 20 September 1896, registered at Hollingbourne, Kent, he was a farmer when he attested in 1914, and died in 1985, registered at Tunbridge Wells, Kent.

319268 E.C. Taylor, not in the RAF Muster Roll and no dates listed for postings.

203786 Cecil Horace Taylor attested 1 September 1915, was born in Sussex, in 1888, and was a "music hall artist" prior to the war.  The RAF Muster Roll for

April 1918 lists him as an Aerial Gunner/Gunlayer, and you stated that he qualified as an Observer subsequently.  He is the only airman who was both an aerial gunner

and an observer, and he served in 11 Squadron during the appropriate time.  The discrepant initials and service numbers remain problematic, but I suggest

that 203786 Cecil Horace Taylor is the strongest candidate for James Gamble's 11 Squadron Observer.

Josquin

 

 

Thanks Josquin for that detailed summary.  It does sound like there was only one Sgt Taylor who served on 11 Sqn as an Observer in the right timeframe and that Cecil Horace is our man.  Additionally, if there were 2 Sgt Taylor Observers, I'd expect the unit records to reflect that by including the initials in, for example, daily flying summaries etc., although I accept that I may be naïvely expecting a greater degree of rigour in the reporting that was normally the case.  

 

I have a couple of photos of unidentified RFC/RAF personnel who possibly served on 11 Sqn.  I'll post those in a separate thread in case they're of interest to folks on the forum.  I had thought one of them might be the elusive Sgt Taylor but neither photo matches the physical description in Taylor's Service Record.  

[Buffnut453]

Just to confirm Cecil Horace Taylor was remustered to Observer from Air Gunner on 3 August 1918.

[Buffnut453]

Resurrecting this thread based on some more digging.

 

The RAF Muster Roll from 1 Apr 1918 lists 203786, Taylor C.H. with a RFC/RNAS trade of "gunlayer". and a RFC/RNAS rank of "A. Mech. 1".  His new RAF rank is given as "Private 1". 

 

His service record shows that he enlisted in the RNAS on 6 Apr 1915 with promotions as shown in the image below:

 

 

I could use some help interpreting a few of these ranks.  Please grade my homework:

 

6 Apr 1915: PO Mech E(Arm Car) - Petty Officer Mechanic, Engines? (Armoured Cars?)

1 Sep 1915: Air Mech 1 G - Air Mechanic 1st Class Guns?

3 Oct 1917: AM I GL - Air Mechanic First Class Gun Layer

16 Dec 1917: AM I G (GL) - Air Mechanic 1st Class Guns? (Gun Layer)

1 Apr 1918: Pte I - Private First Class (this tallies with his RAF Muster Roll entry)

3 Aug 1918: Sgt Mech - Sergeant Mechanic

1 Jan 1919: Sgt - this one's easy, plain old Sergeant

 

Also, I presume the A Mech 1 ranks were still RNAS given that his service record doesn't identify any transfer from the RNAS to the RFC prior to the 1 Apr 1918 formation of the RAF.

 

Any insights would be most welcome.

Many thanks,

Mark

Edited 4 October , 2019 by Buffnut453