Pte David O'Sullivan of the HMS Hindustan

[Kos]

I hope this is the right place to post this, I am looking for any information on my grand uncle Pte David O'Sullivan service number : CH/21243 who died on 23rd of April 1918. He was buried in a cemetery in Vlissingen, myself and my family went to his grave for his 100 year anniversary and I have taking a big interest in him so any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

Kieran 

[sotonmate]

Kieran

 

Welcome to the Forum !

Have you seen his entry on the CWGC database ? I attach it in case you haven't. You can see by opening some extra pages that he fought at ZEEBRUGGE where an attempt was made to close the harbour to U-Boats in April 1918. This Centenary was marked in the last week on TV.

Your GU was initially buried in another Cemetery in (Vlissingen) Flushing and re-buried elsewhere in later years.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/472332/o'sullivan,-/

[horatio2]

His Attestation Pack is at the Fleet Air Arm Museum.

[sotonmate]

https://www.naval-history.net/WW1Battle1804ZeebruggeOstend.htm

gives some info on 23 April 1918. You will see that your GU was transferred from HINDUSTAN to be a part of the raiding party on VINDICTIVE.

You should be proud to be related to a brave man.

There is another article concerning HINDUSTAN, which didn't have an action role at ZEEBRUGGE and was seemingly used as an accomodation ship prior to the raid:

http://www.firstworldwar.com/diaries/zeebrugge.htm

To be buried in VLISSINGEN suggests that your GU may have been lost in the sea and later found nearer to his burial place. There may be others here who have a definitive answer as I remember that there are other full topics on the raid.

Edited 28 April , 2018 by sotonmate

[museumtom]

O'Sullivan, David. (Waterford). Private. Royal Marines Light Infantry. Royal Marines Battalion, H. M. S. Hindustan. Ch. /21243.
Date of death: 23/04/1918.
Age: 19.
Born: Ballynoe, Tallow, County Waterford.
Death: Killed or died as a direct result of enemy action.
Next of kin, etc: Son of Denis and Margaret O'Sullivan, of Glenreigh, Ballynoe, Tallow, County Waterford
Notes- D. O. B. 14/11/1898.
Grave/Memorial: I 14.
Cemetery: Flushing (Vlissingen) Northern Cemetery, Netherlands.

 

As far as I know he is listed on the War Memorial in Dungarvan, County Waterford.

[little bob]

Enlisted at Cork 30th March 1917, 5 foot 6ins tall , fresh complexion, brown eyes, dark brown hair. Served at Recruit Depot, Deal from 30/3/1917 until 23/12/1917. Served B Company Chatham Division  1/1/1918 until 23/4/1918. War Gratuity of £5  10s  0d was paid on 17/10/1919.

 

Bob

[Kos]

You guys are so helpful, thank you so much! 

[domwalsh]

Your great uncle was in 1 Platoon, RM, aboard HMS Iris. I have a photo of the platoon which I can forward if you let me have your email. Not sure if I've identified him but hope you can. Will see if I have anything on him in my files.

Best.

Dom

[Kos]

19 minutes ago, domwalsh said:

Your great uncle was in 1 Platoon, RM, aboard HMS Iris. I have a photo of the platoon which I can forward if you let me have your email. Not sure if I've identified him but hope you can. Will see if I have anything on him in my files.

Best.

Dom

Hi Dom, 

My email address is kieranrachel@live.ie, that would be brilliant if you could forward me the picture. I never new he was on the HMS iris, always thought it was just the HMS Hindustan he was aboard. 

 

Kieran 

[domwalsh]

The Hindustan was not involved in the raid, just used as a depot ship for those waiting to take part in the raid. Have a read up on the Iris. You will see that all but a handful of marines were killed by a shell as the Iris approached the Mole. They had no chance to accomplish any of their aims, sadly.

Will email you the pic.

Dom

[GrenPen]

What is very peculiar is that his name is not recorded on the Iris brass plaque memorial, unlike those who fell alongside him. This is a list of the ORs on the plaque who were in the RMLI 

 

	Sparkes	CH/16534
	Steer	CH/16666
	Jones	CH/19114
	Heffernan	CH/7357
	Bostock	CH/19897
	Butler	CH/2092/S
	Cornforth	CH/19029
	Croft	CH/16798
	Dale	CH/2101/S
	Drury	CH/19162
	Eldridge	CH/11534
	Gatehouse	CH/19258
	Goulden	CH/21771
	Harbour	CH/16516
	Hurley	CH/2417/S
	James	CH/17836
G W	Jones	CH/20137
R T	Jones	CH/2278/S
	Latimer	CH/21084
	Linkin	CH/17284
	Loxley	PO/1921/S
	Mason	CH/20357
	Matthews	PLY/16141
	May	CH/18145
	Misselbrook	CH/21177
	O'Neil	CH/18487
	Parks	CH/21276
	Prangnell	CH/19762
	Reeder	CH/17982
	Scott	CH/2480/S
	Spiers	PLY/1890/S
	Sunshine	CH/19072
	Swan	CH/19349
	Thwaites	CH/19653
	West	CH/13569
	Wood	CH/19473

Link to the plaque
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30028294

[GrenPen]

Paul Kendall's most recent book, published in 2016 and containing many eyewitness reports, reveals that the Marine Battalion men were embarked early on 6th April 1918, and were then transported to the Swin in the Thames Estuary, when they were billeted aboard either the Vindictive or the Hindustan.

 

Quote

Arriving in the Swin in the afternoon, the Battalion transferred for accommodation to the old battleship HMS Hindustan, with the exception of "C" Company [Plymouth] which went straight to HMS Vindictive

 

[johnboy]

some info on HMS Iris

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Royal_Iris

[Chris_B]

@domwalsh Has said Pte.David O'Sullivan was "was in 1 Platoon, RM, aboard HMS Iris."  

 

@GrenPen Has asked why his name is not on the Iris memorial plaque.   

 

I'd ask why is he buried in Holland.  Was he retrieved from the sea or land after the raid, and not one of the casualties aboard the Iris when she returned to Dover?  Was he really on the Iris during the raid? 

 

The Naval History site lists a small group marines as attached to Rm 4th BN at  https://www.naval-history.net/xDKCas1918-04Apr.htm

 

RM, 4th Battalion, attached to

 BATT, Ernest A, Private, RMLI, 9317 (Po) (ex-Hindustan, pre-Dreadnought battleship)

 JACKSON, Joseph, Lieutenant, RMLI (from Iris, assault ship)

 JACKSON, Stanley, Private, RMLI, S 515 (Ch) (from Vindictive, assault ship)

 LINKIN, Percy G, Private, RMLI, 17284 (Ch) (from Iris)

 MISSLEBROOK, William, Private, RMLI, 21177 (Ch) (from Iris)

 RIGBY, Charles N B, Lieutenant, RMA (ex-Barham, Dreadnought battleship)

 O'SULLIVAN, David, Private, RMLI, 21243 (Ch) (ex-Hindustan)

 

Where does this info come from ?   Some of those names are on the brass Iris memorial plaques, some are not.  Misslebrook seems to be a late addition at the bottom of the plaque.  It's perhaps not surprising that confusion on the day, and inaccuracies in records, has meant the status of these few men is not entirely clear. 

[GrenPen]

I am not sure where this post is trying to go, and do not see a great deal of research having been made before posting, but I will make a few comments in relation to some points raised, and there are some questions I am not going to bother with, as they are out of the scope of what I have looked at.

 

Quote

domwalsh Has said Pte.David O'Sullivan was "was in 1 Platoon, RM, aboard HMS Iris."  

 

Was he really on the Iris during the raid? 

 

Dom has done a considerable amount of research on Zeebrugge. He has made a considerable number of posts on the GWF on the subject of Zeebrugge, and in my humble opinion he is the most authoritative person alive today on the subject of the 4th Royal Marine Battalion at Zeebrugge. I would say that he has identified O'Sullivan from the nominal roll of the 4th Royal Marine Battalion which is now in the custody of the Royal Marines Museum, which Dom has consulted and photographed.

If you do a bit of digging, there are several sources which will indicate that the battalion had B Company comprised of men from the Chatham element of the Royal Marine Light Infantry. These men usually have a prefix of "CH/" in front of their service number if they are on the CWGC database. Again, if you perform research, you will be able to ascertain that the Chatham marines were embarked on board HMS Iris II, and that the Portsmouth and Plymouth companies of the battalion were embarked aboard HMS Vindictive.

 

There were 201 Marines who either died of wounds or were killed in action, and many were Chatham marines aboard HMS Iris II when the Marines were assembling to land and got shelled. Some additional marines were aboard, crewing some of the battalion's heavy weapons.

 

Quote

It's perhaps not surprising that confusion on the day, and inaccuracies in records, has meant the status of these few men is not entirely clear. 

 

I completely agree with this statement; not many documents have survived which provide details on the Zeebrugge Raid participants' activity during this action.

I felt the tone of the previous post implied that what had been posted was highly questionable, yet no alternative was not forthcoming. If you have source material that blows out of the water any assertions made in the thread, and you have a plausible alternative then please do share this information.

[rustyredhead]

Thank you Kieran

 

On the Memorial Roll of Honour,   Zeebrugge Raid,#11  There is a D.O.Sullivan.   I have little knowledge of the specifics of the Battle of Zeebrugge,  as much was lost, perhaps very few have, also it stirred controversy between the Admiralty and Admiral Keyes from its inception onward.  However its Men were undoubtedly courageous as  I believe the men were all volunteers knowing their mission was perilous.     Lt-Cmdr Bradford secured the  Iris on the second attempt, losing his life in the process,  The Mole was very heavily fortified.  (probably an understatement)

 

 

The following is on the  IWM site 

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/community/4549

There are 66 names in detail, yet it also states there are 70 names & gives this detail of  Sullivan, D O

https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials/name/1012580

 

This is his page from Lives of the First World War, which you may have already seen

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/6919693

 

Though I'm not the best at detailed practical information,  The spirit of The Zeebrugge Raid is very dear, and its brave men,  inspirational,   There are many accounts of the Raid this one  quotes its last survivour , a Royal Marine named Alfred Hutchinson, The King, Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, Sir Douglas Haig, to name a few.

   

http://www.mckenzie.uk.com/blogs/mckenzie/text-original-1993-web-site

 

I don't know if you already have much knowledge of the raid,  but

I tried to attach 2 links to  videos,  Named Zeebrugge Raid part 1 & 2 which shows a re enactment ,   however I've messed up and the  whole video is showing & I don't know how to turn it back to a Link.

 

I was also going to link to a Pathe News  Iris (before it became Royal) returning with shell damage, up the Mersey, but I'm afraid to post it now, because its to the accompaniment of a rousing Elgar which may start booming over the site

 

So Maybe it is just that he is listed as Sullivan D.O.  instead of D. O'Sullivan which is confusing and yes you are related to a very brave man

 

I think these are the links,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkjbpkwDlKA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6YdwiRwI_4

 

Regards Rusty

[domwalsh]

15 hours ago, GrenPen said:

I am not sure where this post is trying to go, and do not see a great deal of research having been made before posting, but I will make a few comments in relation to some points raised, and there are some questions I am not going to bother with, as they are out of the scope of what I have looked at.

 

 

Dom has done a considerable amount of research on Zeebrugge. He has made a considerable number of posts on the GWF on the subject of Zeebrugge, and in my humble opinion he is the most authoritative person alive today on the subject of the 4th Royal Marine Battalion at Zeebrugge. I would say that he has identified O'Sullivan from the nominal roll of the 4th Royal Marine Battalion which is now in the custody of the Royal Marines Museum, which Dom has consulted and photographed.

If you do a bit of digging, there are several sources which will indicate that the battalion had B Company comprised of men from the Chatham element of the Royal Marine Light Infantry. These men usually have a prefix of "CH/" in front of their service number if they are on the CWGC database. Again, if you perform research, you will be able to ascertain that the Chatham marines were embarked on board HMS Iris II, and that the Portsmouth and Plymouth companies of the battalion were embarked aboard HMS Vindictive.

 

There were 201 Marines who either died of wounds or were killed in action, and many were Chatham marines aboard HMS Iris II when the Marines were assembling to land and got shelled. Some additional marines were aboard, crewing some of the battalion's heavy weapons.

 

 

I completely agree with this statement; not many documents have survived which provide details on the Zeebrugge Raid participants' activity during this action.

I felt the tone of the previous post implied that what had been posted was highly questionable, yet no alternative was not forthcoming. If you have source material that blows out of the water any assertions made in the thread, and you have a plausible alternative then please do share this information.

You are too kind!

D

[Chris_B]

@GrenPen  I’m sorry you didn’t like the “tone" of my post.  Your reply was somewhat ironic. Having posted a list of names without Pte. D. O’Sullivan yourself, I compounded your error by being blind enough not to see his name on the “shiny” polished brass plaque image at IWM https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials/item/memorial/2419.  Whereas, his name is unmistakable on the dull plaque image I had forgotten about at  https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30028294

 

So, thanks I don’t need any lessons on research.  By the way all the accounts say the Iris was shelled when leaving the mole and not as you stated “many were Chatham marines aboard HMS Iris II when the Marines were assembling to land and got shelled.”.  This was at a time when the marines were crowded below decks, hence the great loss of life.

 

I was in touch with Dom years ago about certain Zeebrugge casualties, and again recently.  I’ve helped the descendant of one casualty in past who was till in possession of the man’s plaque, scroll and medals.  I’ve will never forget the story of these men and tweeted about them in recent weeks @MitchamMemorial

[GrenPen]

2 hours ago, Chris_B said:

@GrenPen  I’m sorry you didn’t like the “tone" of my post.  So, thanks I don’t need any lessons on research. 

 

I felt the tone was knocking assertions that had been made without a source-based alternative being provided, and was asking questions which basic research could have addressed. It is easy to get into arguments over nothing on forums, where comments are misinterpreted. My desire is to engage in informed debate. 
 

2 hours ago, Chris_B said:

Your reply was somewhat ironic. Having posted a list of names without Pte. D. O’Sullivan yourself, I compounded your error by being blind enough not to see his name on the “shiny” polished brass plaque image at IWM https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials/item/memorial/2419.  Whereas, his name is unmistakable on the dull plaque image I had forgotten about.

 

Mea culpa, I ought to have double-checked my list. Well spotted. I did ask for CWGC to review his details, so perhaps he was on a special research list, and kept separate from the other men on the plaque. 

 

You have educated me insofar as the transcribed names are now reappearing on the individual pages of the IWM War Memorials Register entries, which was not the case a few months back.

Is there anything else that can asked about the life and career of CH/21243 Pte David O'Sullivan, 1 Platoon, B Company (Chatham), 4th Royal Marine Battalion?