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Remembered Today:

1st Bn Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) India 1918


Saline
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Hi, I am writing a  book about the soldiers and sailors from our village who fought in WW1. 

I have at last found some information about one of the men ' William Scott'  29509, 1st (Garrison) Battalion, Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)  whose death is recorded on the CWGC website as 1/7/1918. He is buried in Poona (St Sepulchres Cemy.). From the Long, Long Trail site I understand that the 1st Bn. were part of the 19th Brigade and in 33rd Division but can't see anywhere how the battalion got to India.

For most of my other men I've been able to find our where they fought but I'm not finding much about William. Can any one help to explain why he would be in India or  where I might find information?

I've being looking at other posts and see that garrison battalions sometimes were populated with men who had fought in Europe or who were not 100% fit.

Any help would be gratefully received, Tina

 

 

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The soldiers effects entry for the war gratuity is done in an odd way that I haven't seen before. (although the Indian records often are).
 

Based on the date it was calculated, May 1919, the calculation should be made as a Type 2 - so it should be paid gross. This would indicate he had 43 months qualifying service at the time of his death. This indicates enlistment in the month from 02 December 1914.

 

Craig

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William had two service numbers he was originally with the 2nd Battalion Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) under the number S/7076 who were stationed in Bareilly, India at the outbreak of war. They  were deployed to France in October 1915 . Here is his MIC. His service number indicates an enlistment in 1898/99 meaning he may have fought in the Boer War as well. 

 

 

Scott.jpg.78e09c0ea235f819700ee27ec3990e10.jpg

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I think I may have misinterpreted his service number S/7076 as he appears to be only 12 in 1898, if the CWGC is correct about his age.

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I'm no expert, but I believe that you are right about the constitution of garrison battalions, Tina.

 

I don't think 1st Battalion Cameronians in 19th Brigade is the same unit as 1st (Garrison) Battalion Cameronians.

 

CJ

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1 hour ago, ajsmith said:

I think I may have misinterpreted his service number S/7076 as he appears to be only 12 in 1898, if the CWGC is correct about his age.

His war time service only started in Dec 1914 but it needs to be noted that #S/7076 as a regular was allocated in 1898 however the sequence had reached #9999 in 1904 and started again from #1.

S/7263 was issued 17 Dec 1914 so, along with the war gratuity, you can place Scott's enlistment between 2 Dec and 17 Dec 1914.

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252
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Hi Tina,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

7 hours ago, Saline said:

From the Long, Long Trail site I understand that the 1st Bn. were part of the 19th Brigade and in 33rd Division...

 

Like CJ above, I think that the 1st Bn., and the 1st Garrison Battalion were different entities. The LLT says:

 

1st Garrison Battalion
Formed in Hamilton in February 1916. Moved to India in the same month, where it remained.

 

I didn't get very near his 29509 Garrison Bn number for men with surviving papers. The best I found were:

 

29539 Brownlie - transferred to 1/GB at Meerut 31.03.1918. 

29588 Waters - transferred to 1/GB at Chakrata 24.08.1918

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit:

29506 Farrell transferred to the Garrison Battalion at Meerut on 8th January 1918

Edited by clk
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The FIBIS Fibiwiki page First Word War includes a section "British Army Territorial Force troops in India", which includes a section on Garrison Battalions, for general details.

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/First_World_War#British_Army_Territorial_Force_troops_in_India

 

There is possibly a death record on findmypast, but the Search is not working for me at the moment, and I can't access any Search results

 

In 2012, the cemetery in Poona, now Pune,  was very overgrown, with snakes.

Some images of the cemetery 2011

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Category:Poona_cemetery_images

 

Cheers

Maureen

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  • 11 months later...
McKENZIE Lance Corporal 24126                                                                                                                                                       Hello This my Great Grandfather he died in India my question is ,on his marrage  certificate he was named Franklin Walker Mackenzie  however his grave is written Frank Mckenzie  would his service record be listed as F W Mackenzie or Frank McKenzie . Kind regards Richard F
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Hi Richard

I see from his MIC he was only entitled to the BWM (served overseas but not in a combat zone).

As he is listed as Frank on the MIC and the CWGC it would seem reasonable to presume that is the name he served under. Sadly it does not appear as though his service record has survived (few did).

Good luck with your research

David

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Hi Richard,

 

Unfortunately, I didn't see any service papers with either of the surname spellings, under the 24126 number. There was a 'Soldiers Died' hit under the spelling MacKenzie, which notes "FORMERLY 1604, A.G.A [sic]". Under that number there is a one page record on Findmypast under the name of Frank McKenzie, which says that his original attestation had been forwarded from RGA Records "...in consequence of his having been transferred to the 3rd Batt Black Watch with effect from 9.6.15".

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit:

Looking at surviving papers for a couple of 1st Garrison Bn men that bracket his 24126 number:

 

24121 Murray was transferred to the 1st Garrison Bn from 3/Black Watch on 2.2.1916

24126

24139 Ferguson was transferred to the 1st Garrison Bn from 3/Black Watch on 2.2.1916. Embarked for India 21.2.1916

Edited by clk
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6 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

Hi Richard

I see from his MIC he was only entitled to the BWM (served overseas but not in a combat zone).

As he is listed as Frank on the MIC and the CWGC it would seem reasonable to presume that is the name he served under. Sadly it does not appear as though his service record has survived (few did).

Good luck with your research

David

Hello David we (The family )gather he died of a fever of some sort while in India I have also been told from a member of the family He was in the army until he married in 1905 then re-enlisted is this possible that he may have registered as Franklin Walker Mackenzie  or is your service number permanent Kind regards Richard

 

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6 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Richard,

 

Unfortunately, I didn't see any service papers with either of the surname spellings, under the 24126 number. There was a 'Soldiers Died' hit under the spelling MacKenzie, which notes "FORMERLY 1604, A.G.A [sic]". Under that number there is a one page record on Findmypast under the name of Frank McKenzie, which says that his original attestation had been forwarded from RGA Records "...in consequence of his having been transferred to the 3rd Batt Black Watch with effect from 9.6.15".

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit:

Looking at surviving papers for a couple of 1st Garrison Bn men that bracket his 24126 number:

 

24121 Murray was transferred to the 1st Garrison Bn from 3/Black Watch on 2.2.1916

24126

24139 Ferguson was transferred to the 1st Garrison Bn from 3/Black Watch on 2.2.1916. Embarked for India 21.2.1916

Would the find my past records of Frank Mackenzie formally 1604  have any next of Kin Registered 

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15 minutes ago, STANSGRANDS said:

Hello David we (The family )gather he died of a fever of some sort while in India I have also been told from a member of the family He was in the army until he married in 1905 then re-enlisted is this possible that he may have registered as Franklin Walker Mackenzie  or is your service number permanent Kind regards Richard

 

Richard

It is all possible. Service numbers can change, usually when a soldier changes regiments or as a result of a renumbering exercise. Check out the Long Long Trail link above on how to research a soldier

However in this case we are working with the number quoted at the time of his demise.

His earlier service maybe under a different name. Experts needed to confirm.

David

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1 minute ago, DavidOwen said:

Richard

It is all possible. Service numbers can change, usually when a soldier changes regiments or as a result of a renumbering exercise. Check out the Long Long Trail link above on how to research a soldier

However in this case we are working with the number quoted at the time of his demise.

His earlier service maybe under a different name. Experts needed to confirm.

David

My Grandfather  said his Father was with the( ladies of hell or petycote ladies of hell) Which I understand  was Black watch But... Canadian am I right 

 

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Hi Richard,

 

59 minutes ago, STANSGRANDS said:

we (The family )gather he died of a fever of some sort while in India

 

A copy death certificate might clarify. You should be able to get one from the General Register Office (link). I'm not sure for overseas deaths if you can do that online, so you may have to contact them first. The record that you'd be after is indexed...

 

image.png.f582b6129b3858bd2f33bb0341728ecc.png

 

image.png.e2649b0e0faf85bfc6ae57044c72cd37.png

 

 image.png.bb1e81a7c4f51a70459db0c385319583.png

 

image.png.5bb04d45d27ee3f80825f789915d907b.png

Images sourced from Findmypast

 

1 hour ago, STANSGRANDS said:

Would the find my past records of Frank Mackenzie formally 1604  have any next of Kin Registered

 

No. It's just a receipt for the attestation.

 

Regards

Chris

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There is a burial record on findmypast under the name Franklin Mackenzie in the database India Office deaths, L. Cpl 1st G. B. Scottish Rifles

 

He died 17 October 1918, and was buried 18 October 1918 at St John's Cemetery, Meerut, aged 42.  The cause of death was pneumonia.

 

Including his death,  on the same register page, there are eight Army deaths in the period 17 October 1918 to 28 October 1918. The causes of death were Influenza, two;

pneumonia, six. 

 

I would say almost certainly the pneumonia deaths were secondary to influenza

 

St John's Church at Meerut is very imposing, built 1822.  For  images and a video, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Meerut

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Meerut

 

Cheers

Maureen

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