Is this the "Birth of The RAF Roundel".?

[RitchiebytheC]

Hello there fellow enthusiasts..

Whilst researching Lieutenant General Sir David Henderson, I came across this letter.

Would it be prudent of me to comment on the importance of this document in regards to the Historical Importance? Whilst widely regarded by many as the "Forgotten Father of the RAF", the importance of his involvement should not be underestimated. He is buried here locally in Girvan alongside his only son Ian Henderson, who died in an aeroplane crash just a few miles up from here at Turnberry in 1918.

Thoughts on this..

[Fattyowls]

Rich, where did you find the document?

 

Pete

[RitchiebytheC]

Pete, it was on Twitter, but comes from Box AIR 1 File at The National Archives at Kew..

Hope this helps..

 

10 minutes ago, Fattyowls said:

Rich, where did you find the document?

 

Pete

[Fattyowls]

Thanks matey.

[thetrenchrat22]

I think it is, as I remember a programme years ago. 

 

Which mentioned that the Union Jack  🇬🇧, looked like the German cross on their aeroplane’s when viewed from below 

 

it was mentioned about the French use of insignia 

Edited 8 April , 2018 by thetrenchrat22

[ICM - RAF Retd]

Excellent find!  This is just as I've understood things - proposing a change to a roundel marking used by the French, but reversing the French colours.

[pete-c]

There were other suggestions apparently, as detailed in Aircraft Camouflage and Markings 1907-1954 by Bruce Robertson.  A Union flag in the shape of a shield was trialled in late August 1914 but was far from satisfactory.  A Field Headquarters Memorandum issued in October impressed the need to display the Union flag as large as possible utilising the full chord of the wing - the shield form being abandoned.   The French use of a cockade had meanwhile proved successful, presumably prompting Henderson's suggestion.  A G.H.Q. Order to adopt the French style cockade - but with the colours reversed - was thus implemented on December 11th 1914.

Edited 9 April , 2018 by pete-c

[Stuart24]

Hello,

 

That letter is in file AIR1/864/204/5/512 at TNA.  The same file contains a report on tests Farnborough on 19 October 1914 (report is dated 22 October) to evaluate the use of Union Jacks on the lower wings of BE2s (and finding in favour of them), and complaints from Henderson that these aren't working at the front.  It also includes a copy of RFC Routine Orders No. 76 (12 November 1914) promulgating the use of roundels instead of the Union Jack on RFC aircraft.

 

There is also at TNA (AIR1/626/17/44) the 'Report on the Interdepartmental Committee on Flags for Aircraft, 1913'.  This committee consisted of Colonel G. M. W. Macdonogh, Lieutenant Colonel F. H. Sykes, and Captain M. F. Sueter RN.  They concluded that national markings weren't necessary on aircraft, and that 'For the identification of individual aeroplanes, lettering on the vertical rudder should be adopted.'  Interestingly, during the pre-war army summer manoeuvres, the aircraft attached to each of the opposing forces had coloured panels painted on the underneath of their wings to identify which force they belonged to - either White or Brown.

 

Cheers

Stuart

 

[MikeMeech]

4 hours ago, Stuart24 said:

Hello,

 

That letter is in file AIR1/864/204/5/512 at TNA.  The same file contains a report on tests Farnborough on 19 October 1914 (report is dated 22 October) to evaluate the use of Union Jacks on the lower wings of BE2s (and finding in favour of them), and complaints from Henderson that these aren't working at the front.  It also includes a copy of RFC Routine Orders No. 76 (12 November 1914) promulgating the use of roundels instead of the Union Jack on RFC aircraft.

 

There is also at TNA (AIR1/626/17/44) the 'Report on the Interdepartmental Committee on Flags for Aircraft, 1913'.  This committee consisted of Colonel G. M. W. Macdonogh, Lieutenant Colonel F. H. Sykes, and Captain M. F. Sueter RN.  They concluded that national markings weren't necessary on aircraft, and that 'For the identification of individual aeroplanes, lettering on the vertical rudder should be adopted.'  Interestingly, during the pre-war army summer manoeuvres, the aircraft attached to each of the opposing forces had coloured panels painted on the underneath of their wings to identify which force they belonged to - either White or Brown.

 

Cheers

Stuart

 

Hi

 

For the 1913 exercises large black bands were painted under the wings, as seen below:

 

 

In April/May 1916 there appears to be a failure of manufacturers to standardize on the size and placement of the roundel:

 

Mike

 

 

 

 

 

[MikeMeech]

Hi

 

Another 'markings' problem was to identify different BE.2 squadrons so a document (AIR 1/867/204/5/523) that laid down the markings to be worn was issued on 23 April 1916, covering letter and one example below:

 

Mike

 

 

[nieuport11]

Interestingly the term 'roundel' was not actually used at this time

The word comes from heraldry but they referred to it as a 'circle' or 'ring'

I've been unable to ascertain when the word roundel was first used by the RFC/RAF

[Buffnut453]

Was the term 'cockade' used during the period?  If not, did Cross and Cockade Society/International have it wrong all these years?

[nils d]

On ‎17‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 18:11, Buffnut453 said:

Was the term 'cockade' used during the period?  If not, did Cross and Cockade Society/International have it wrong all these years?

Not if youre French.....

[Buffnut453]

2 hours ago, nils d said:

Not if youre French.....

 

Fair enough.  I was just wondering if the term made it across the Channel, that's all. 

[nils d]

Y'know l don't think it did  ,lve no record of it by the British at the time.

Not that l object to it.

[ICM - RAF Retd]

I think you might find mentions of a White Cockade going back to 1745 and Bonnie Prince Charlie, but that's probably a particular Scots version!

[Nick Beale]

There's a traditional English folk song, "The White Cockade", sample lyric from lamenting girlfriend: "It's true my love's enlisted and he wears the white cockade". I'd always assumed it was a regimental emblem but I don't know of what vintage.