alf mcm Posted 6 April , 2018 Share Posted 6 April , 2018 This thread was prompted by reading Colin Sayer’s book ‘A Somewhat Unusual Journey - Victoria Station to Taganrog – A War Office Mission to Russia 1919’. It includes transcripts of his father, Major H.S. Sayer’s, diary describing his journey to South Russia, in order to assess and help organize the development of the Russian Tank Corps. It’s a book I can thoroughly recommend. He was joined for most of his journey {as far as Constantinople}, by a Miss Hill, who was going to Constantinople to act as Secretary to Colonel Samson. Major Sayer says that she was English, living in Riga, Russia when her house was burnt down. The family settled in Moscow, from where they also had to leave, and ended up, eventually, in England. Miss Hill’s first name is never mentioned, and it is noted that she spoke 4 languages and ended up in the War Office in Military Intelligence. She was heading for Adrianople to be Secretary to Colonel Samson. When she got to Constantinople she found, on 8th August, that Colonel Samson had returned to England and her job had been filled. G.H.Q. were trying to get her another job, so that she wouldn’t have to be sent home. I think I have identified ‘Miss Hill’, but there are some anomalies. Edith Gertrude Hill was born in Istanbul, Turkey in 1887. Her parents were Albert Anderson Hill, Cashier of the Glamorgan Coal Company, and Linda Frances Whittall. They were married in All Saints Church, in the District of Kadikeuy, Constantinople, Turkey on 16th June 1885. Edith was still in Constantinople in early 1902, when she took part in a pantomime. This link to the Levantine Heritage Foundation gives more details;- http://www.levantineheritage.com/constantinople-pantomime.html There are two British Red Cross records for an Edith Hill, as follows;- First name(s) Edith Last name Hill Year 1915 Birth year - Rank Nursing Member Address The Bungalow Ditton Court Farm Nr Maidstone County Kent County as transcribed Kent Country England Service from 22/04/1915 Service to 06/1916 Engagement date 22/04/1915 Pay at engagement nil Rank at termination Nursing member Pay at termination nil Hours worked Whole Commission S.J.A.B. London/96 Duties V.A.D. Nurse Addtional information 1916 Gifford House Aux: Hospital Roehampton S.W. April 22 1915 - Jan: 2 1916 Home for Belgian Babies Cromwell Road 1916 1917 Land worker 1918 Land worker 1919 Land worker And the second one:- First name(s) Edith Last name Hill Year 1915 Birth year - Rank Nursing Member Address (Constantinople) ℅ Miss S. Portlock Dadson Rossett Roehampton County Surrey Country England Service from 22/04/1915 Service to 01/1919 Engagement date 22/04/1915 Pay at engagement nil Termination date 1919 Rank at termination Nursing member Hospital Gifford House, Roehampton Department "Overseas Constantinople" Hours worked whole Commission S.J.A.B. London 96 Duties V.A.D. Nurse Previous engagement - Honours awarded nil Addtional information 1915 Gifford House Aux: Hosp Roehampton S.W. April 22 1915 - Jan: 2 1916 1510 hours 1916 Home for Belgian Babies Cromwell Road S.W. 1917 On the land 1918 On the land 1919 Returned Constantinople See letter under Londo These records clearly show that she is ‘Miss Hill’. Her termination date from the British Red Cross is shown as January 1919. Major Sayer first met her in Mordane, France on 18th July 1919. It would seem then that she was working for the War Office/Military Intelligence at some time between January and July 1919. Edith Gertrude Hill married John Mac Manaway, Clerk in Holy Orders, at Esher, St. George, Later Christchurch, Surrey on 19th July 1920. Edith was living at The Green, Esher, and her father was described as a Merchant. John’s father, Robert Mac Manaway was deceased, and was described as a ‘Gentleman’. The witnesses at the marriage were Ethel M.M. Barker and William Jackson Perkins. I have been unable to find out anything about Edith after her marriage. I have some questions, which members of the forum may be able to answer;- 1. Can anyone confirm that Edith Gertrude Hill is the same person as Edith Hill in the Red Cross Records? 2. What does ‘Land Worker’ mean in the Red Cross records? 3. What was Colonel Samson’s position in Constantinople. 4. Can anyone find a medal index card for Edith Hill? 5. Does anyone know what Edith did for Military Intelligence? 6. Does anyone know what happened to Edith after she married John MacManaway? Answers to these questions, and any other information would be much appreciated. Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 7 April , 2018 Share Posted 7 April , 2018 (edited) I don't know if it is the same Colonel Samson, but at one time it appears he was Military Governor and Control Officer for Eastern Thrace, and before the war had been consul general at Adrinople/Edirne. "... Col.Samson had been very secretive" https://books.google.com.au/books?id=yE6oBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA121 pages 121-123 Among the Ottomans: Diaries from Turkey in World War I, edited by Ian Lyster. In particular Diaries of Captain Henry Newbolt Lyster. Limited online pages available. Regarding some of the other questions, I would take a Land Worker to be a farm labourer worker. If you don't receive any information about what happened to Edith after her marriage, perhaps you could post on a general genealogy forum such as Who Do You Think You Are Forum, where there are some expert Forum members. You need to register http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/forum/ I looked in the Ancestry database UK, Crockford's Clerical Directories for the husband in the 1932 edition, but couldn't see an entry. https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1548 "As with many professional directories those listed may have been actively working, or may have retired. Biographies would only be removed when a person died." I'm assuming as a Clerk in Holy Orders he would have been eligible to be listed. Cheers Maureen Edit: There are a series of free downloads from the National Archives: Subseries within KV 1 - MI5 WORLD WAR 1 BRANCH REPORTS: D BRANCH http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C3973358 KV 1/15 1921 KV 1. Imperial Overseas Intelligence KV 1/16 1921 KV 1. Imperial Overseas Intelligence 1915-1919: appendices KV 1/17 1921 KV 1. Imperial Overseas Intelligence 1915-1919: Eastern Mediterranean Special Intelligence Bureau KV 1/18 1921 KV 1. Imperial Overseas Intelligence 1918: Cyprus section and appendices KV 1/19 1921 KV 1. Summary Perhaps there might be some information about the Intelligence Service in Turkey Edited 7 April , 2018 by Maureene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 7 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 7 April , 2018 Thanks for your reply Maureene. It certainly looks like you have the correct Colonel Samson. I also thought a Land Worker and on the land meant a farm worker, but wondered why would a VAD Nurse be working on the land. I have just come across another VAD Nurse, Rosamund Poole, https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM/RED-CROSS/156626 whose details are quite similar to Edith's, serving at Roehampton, the Home for Belgian Babies, and on the land. The record for A. Constant Booth shows that as a Land Worker she did potato gathering, and gardening, as well as working in a Nursery. I'll have a look at the free downloads at TNA, to see what I can find out. I have downloaded KV 1/59, list of MI5 staff, but there is no mention of a Miss Hill. Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 8 April , 2018 Share Posted 8 April , 2018 Here is a further reference to Rhys Samson. An entry under TURKEY. Rhys Samson's organisation was later known as the Bureau of Military Information. At the beginning of the war, in February (1915?) Samson moved his office to Athens https://books.google.com.au/books?id=CVNzAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA317 page 317 Historical Dictionary of World War I Intelligence by Nigel West. Unfortunately the next page is not available Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 8 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 8 April , 2018 Thanks Maureene, This is a great help. I have read all the KV series records you suggested, but there is no mention of Edith Hill. I t would seem that Edith was probably working for MI1{c}, rather than MI5. I know that 'Hill' is a common surname, but there is a good chance that Arthur Hill was Edith's brother, Arthur Edwin Hill, born in Istanbul in 1886. I see that the Historical Dictionary of World War 1 Intelligence is available on Amazon, but it is a bit expensive! Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 9 April , 2018 Share Posted 9 April , 2018 14 hours ago, alf mcm said: Historical Dictionary of World War 1 Intelligence Copy at the British Library, the London Library and the National Library of Scotland, so it should be possible to get an inter-library loan from your public library if you still have one? sJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 9 April , 2018 Share Posted 9 April , 2018 (edited) On 4/8/2018 at 10:19, alf mcm said: Thanks Maureene, This is a great help. I have read all the KV series records you suggested, but there is no mention of Edith Hill. I t would seem that Edith was probably working for MI1{c}, rather than MI5. I know that 'Hill' is a common surname, but there is a good chance that Arthur Hill was Edith's brother, Arthur Edwin Hill, born in Istanbul in 1886. I see that the Historical Dictionary of World War 1 Intelligence is available on Amazon, but it is a bit expensive! Regards, Alf McM Hi Alf Edith's brother was Arthur Edwin Hill b.19.4.1886 d.13.1.1978, in Greece Arthur below. .Edith was born in Istabul in 1887 In 1931/32 she was at Little Felcourt School, East Grinstead, Surrey.....looking...her mother Linda Frances Hill died in Devon in 1966 aged 100 yrs, her father, Albert Anderson Hill died 28th Sept, 1935 in Hampshire, probate to his widow.........Ohttp://www.levantineheritage.com/pdf/Updating-the-Whittalls-of-Turkey-genealogy-in-1996-Betty-McKernan.pdf On page 10 of 24 on this site there is a photograph taken in 1902 Edith Hill (MacManaway) is number 14. FACES OBLITERATED BY NUMBER but very interesting history ........ Edith Hill on the left from levantineheritage.com/i/whit5. Edited 9 April , 2018 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 9 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2018 (edited) 19 hours ago, seaJane said: Copy at the British Library, the London Library and the National Library of Scotland, so it should be possible to get an inter-library loan from your public library if you still have one? sJ Thanks SeaJane, I'll give it a try, Regards, Alf 10 hours ago, The Inspector said: Hi Alf Edith's brother was Arthur Edwin Hill b.19.4.1886 d.13.1.1978, in Greece Arthur below. .Edith was born in Istabul in 1887 In 1931/32 she was at Little Felcourt School, East Grinstead, Surrey.....looking...her mother Linda Frances Hill died in Devon in 1966 aged 100 yrs, her father, Albert Anderson Hill died 28th Sept, 1935 in Hampshire, probate to his widow.........Ohttp://www.levantineheritage.com/pdf/Updating-the-Whittalls-of-Turkey-genealogy-in-1996-Betty-McKernan.pdf On page 10 of 24 on this site there is a photograph taken in 1902 Edith Hill (MacManaway) is number 14. FACES OBLITERATED BY NUMBER but very interesting history ........ Edith Hill on the left from levantineheritage.com/i/whit5. Thanks Inspector, I had come across the Levantine site and found it very interesting indeed. I must admit that I also found the Whittall site and only read the first 2 or 3 pages! My mistake, it is really fascinating. Do you know what Edith was doing at Little Felcourt School? I found Edith's mother in the 1939 Register, living in Devon. Regards, Alf Edit;- To continue the Military Intelligence theme, Mr A. Whittall {perhaps Arthur} was Passport Control Officer for Istanbull in 1940. Edited 9 April , 2018 by alf mcm Details added for A. Whittall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 9 April , 2018 Share Posted 9 April , 2018 Hi Alf Found this https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pHfVMTiL52YC&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=private+schools+in+little+felcourt&source=bl&ots=QYrZnCjP8t&sig=LKwbefp_UXiuJjHqUY6lTcUNyNs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFq5qd9K3aAhVSPsAKHSM8C7AQ6AEIjwEwCA#v=onepage&q=private schools in little felcourt&f=false So she was probably teaching at the school. Regards Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 9 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2018 (edited) Very interesting Barry. My guess is that Edith was also teaching languages. Since husband John was a Minister, perhaps he had a position somewhere near the school. Regards, Alf Edited 9 April , 2018 by alf mcm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 9 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2018 (edited) I read somewhere that Rhys Samson had, as an assistant an R.N.V.R. Officer named Hill. National Archives has a service record for an Arthur Edwin Hill, with a date of birth of 19th April 1889. There is a record on Findmypast which confirms he was born in 1886. See the Inspector's post #7. Regards, Alf Edit;- Found it. Arthur is mentioned in Six; The Real James Bonds 1909-1939. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qvCtAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT158&dq=constantinople+arthur+hill&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjE54eJhK7aAhUSLVAKHQtHBc0Q6AEIQTAF#v=onepage&q=constantinople arthur hill&f=false Edited 9 April , 2018 by alf mcm Details added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 9 April , 2018 Share Posted 9 April , 2018 (edited) Could he be John James MacManaway, Found his MIC but can I post it!!!!! NOPE. HELP !!! The address is given on the Mic as Eyre Court, Co. Galway, 2.8.20. Same as on the marriage certificate. Comes up on searches on Google as T J MacManaway. Regards Barry Edited 9 April , 2018 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 9 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2018 (edited) Barry, Hopefully this works;- No, didn't work. The link is https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1262/30850_A001021-02934?pid=1817618&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DbmY13291%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsln%3Dmacmanaway%26gsln_x%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26catbucket%3Drstp%26MSAV%3D2%26uidh%3D9y4%26pcat%3DMIL_AWARDS%26h%3D1817618%26recoff%3D11%26dbid%3D1262%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D3&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=bmY13291&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true And for the Medal Roll https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5119/41629_611411_5810-00207?pid=382134&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DbmY13291%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsln%3Dmacmanaway%26gsln_x%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26catbucket%3Drstp%26MSAV%3D2%26uidh%3D9y4%26pcat%3DMIL_AWARDS%26h%3D382134%26recoff%3D7%26dbid%3D5119%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=bmY13291&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true Regards, Alf Edited 9 April , 2018 by alf mcm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 9 April , 2018 Share Posted 9 April , 2018 (edited) Hi All Apologies for the blank spaces! John James MacManaway's father was called Robert and died on 12th March 1920 at Tarmon Ballinlough, County Roscommon, fits the marr. cert....looking Regards Barry Guess it didn't Alf. John James MacManaway was born 10th June 1883, Tarman, Roscommon, Ireland, accoring to trees on Ancestry was In Australia in 1906 and 1912. LG 7th Oct, 1919, 12403, 16th May 1917, 5836, 4330, 2.4.1919. John James MacManaway MC I think we have the right man! Edited 9 April , 2018 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 9 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2018 I wonder why he was awarded the M.C? John Macmanaway was commissioned as a Church of England Chaplain. However, in the 1911 Census {Ireland} he is shown as a Church of Ireland Curate Assistant. He was living at 19 Denny Street, Tralee, County Kerry. Regards, Alf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 9 April , 2018 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2018 This is John's citation for the Military Cross;- https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31680/supplement/15352 Regards, Alf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 10 April , 2018 Share Posted 10 April , 2018 (edited) Hi Alf and all, Sent a PM to a tree owner on Ancestry in Australia, directed them to this site so hopefully may get a bit more info. Regards Barry Edited 10 April , 2018 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 10 April , 2018 Share Posted 10 April , 2018 (edited) Hi Alf A bit more digging. Witness at the wedding Ethel M M Barker was Ethel Madeline Marianne Whittall, b 11.1.1863, Manchester. m.1.6.1891 Constantinople to Alfred Herbert Barker. She died 1962 in Penzance, Cornwall. In 1911 was living at Moda Cottage, Esher, Surrey. The address on the census is Esher, Surrey, on the schedule, next page is Moda Cottage, Esher. It would appear that all the cottages nearby are on "The Green." Regards Barry Edited 10 April , 2018 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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