!917 Bayonet does not fit Model of 1917 Remington?

[Guest]

Friends -

 

I recently acquired (separately) a 1917 Lithgow bayonet and a model of 1917 Remington (made in 1918); to my surprise, the bayonet does not fit the rifle.

 

Appreciate any insight!....seth

 

Forgive me, 1917 Winchester, not Remington

[Chasemuseum]

Sorry - these are not interchangeable. Your Lithgow bayonet is for the No 1 series of .303 rifles Short Magazine Lee Enfield SMLE. Specifically during WW1 Lithgow only manufactured SMLE No1 MkIII.  (both with and without magazine cut-off, with and without volley sights and sighted for the Mk VI and latter the Mk VII cartridges. The initial bayonet in this series was a variation of the P1888 bayonet. In 1907 the "Japanese"* sword bayonet was adopted. This bayonet initially had a large hook quillion but this hook was discontinued early in the war. For Lithgow production the hook quillion appears to have been manufactured until about October 1915. The 1907 bayonet remained in production for No1 rifles until after WW2 with little change. During WW2 India produced several shorter variations. Australia produced a shorter version from 1944 for use with the Owen SMG.

 

The M17 rifle is part of the Series P1913, P14 and M17. A mauser action rifle, in different calibres 0.276inch rimless, .303 rimmed and .30-06 rimless respectively. These all accept the P1913 sword bayonet, initially produced with a hook quillion but virtually all production bayonets were without the hook. In general these look similar to a P1907 except that the muzzle ring is extended up much higher to the muzzle (the P1907 "muzzle ring" actually secures to a lug on the rifle's nose cap.

 

To be pedantic, in WW1 service the P14 was used by the british government and the M17 by USA, so if your rifle is an M17 the matching bayonet should actually have the USA proof and acceptance stamps rather than the British markings.

Cheers

Ross

 

It was called the Japanese bayonet, as the blade was actually a copy of the Japanese T30 Arisaka bayonet (1897) which was the standard Japanese bayonet of the Russo-Japanese War, WW1 and widely used in WW2.

 

[Guest]

Thank you very much Ross for your detailed explanation!

 

Amazing the number of rifle/bayonet variants in production....seth

[4thGordons]

It also appears that the rifle pictured is a Winchester not a Remington! (and the upper handguard ring was manufactured by Eddystone!)

both Pattern 1914 rifles (in .303) and Model 1917 rifles (in.30-06) were manufactured by Remington, Winchester and Eddystone (ERA)

 

Unless they have been replaced Pattern 1913 or Model 1917 bayonets will have two grooves cut in to the wooden scales on the handle to allow quick visual distinctions between them and P1907 bayonets.

Your bayonet is also missing the locking latch/button -- these can be found fairly easily.

 

Chris

[MKC]

SethA

Just to add to the above, your bayonet is an Australian-manufactured Pattern 1907 (P'07)  produced in 1917 - Lithgow being the Small Arms Factory located at Lithgow, in rural New South Wales. Both the Rifle, No.I Mk. III and No.I Mk.III* were produced at SAF Lithgow, the latter up into the 1950s (as were the bayonets), at which time the Australian Army changed to the Rifle, Self Loading, 7.62mm L1A1. 

 

As stated by Chasemuseum, the P'07 is not interchangeable with the Pattern 1913 bayonet  which fits the P14 (and M17)rifles 

 

Mike

 

 

Edited 4 April , 2018 by MKC

[trajan]

4 hours ago, Chasemuseum said:

... In 1907 the "Japanese"* sword bayonet was adopted. ... It was called the Japanese bayonet, as the blade was actually a copy of the Japanese T30 Arisaka bayonet (1897) which was the standard Japanese bayonet of the Russo-Japanese War, WW1 and widely used in WW2.

 

Never heard these called by that name before! Yes, the original P.1907 and first issues P.1913 were modelled on the Type 30, down to the quillon, and even the lack of a clearance hole, but from where does the term "Japanese bayonet" come from? Curious!

[Chasemuseum]

Hi Trajan,

Reference to "Japanese Bayonet" was the name given to the model during the trials in 1906-1907 that lead to the P1907 being adopted.  Some details on the trials are given in the Skennnerton/Richardson book "British & Commonwealth Bayonets".

Cheers

Ross

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[trajan]

Thanks! Annoyingly S&R don't say where they got that information from...

 

Now, Michael Rose of Patt.1888 and P1903 fame, one on the British examples, the other on the Indian ones, has just published, so I understand, this: 17 inches of imperial steel. sword bayonet pattern 1907 in british service, volume 1, 1907-1914 (Gisborne, VICTORIA) 

 

I have not seen a copy and have no further details really - and no, I am not his agent! But with my professorial hat on, and in a pontifical chair (as it were for the latter!), I was highly impressed by his Pattern 1888 book and so I strongly suspect it is thoroughly researched and will become a standard reference. And, like some other bayonet books, a limited publication run, so get yours now before it sells out! It took me four years to complete my set of Carter's German bayonets - at vast expense...