7t2ndswinger Posted 5 January , 2005 Share Posted 5 January , 2005 All, Can anybody help me out with this one? A w/m version of the pagri badge worn towards the end of the 1890's. Gaylor mentions a brass version worn by the 1st Btn. (ruling out Militia, VB's, etc) which I also have but no mention of a w/m one. Could it be a possible error by the forgers, although I have to say it doesn't have the appearance of a copy as its a good quality metal, slightly polished out and with the same sort of cruddy blacking that collects on the rear of Scottish badges. Many Thanks, Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 5 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2005 And the rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 5 January , 2005 Share Posted 5 January , 2005 Pre 1900 Volunteer Battalion or Militia Forage Cap,or possibly a Pouch Badge? Gaylor only records examples ,but does state it is not a Complete Record of ALL Badges worn.{as does K & K} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 5 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2005 Hi Harry, Attached is the 2nd VB which is based more or less on the regular badge but in one piece whitemetal. Gaylor is vague in badge metals in many cases and as you point out does not attempt to catalogue all examples (To be fair who could?). My first thoughts were possibly a 3rd Btn Militia as the laurel is very similar to the PA Somerset Light Infantry 3rd Militia but the East Surrey's 1st Btn. brass version is the same as noted in Gaylor. I really must get K & K !!! I'm not ashamed to ask here what exactly is a pagri? Thanks, Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 6 January , 2005 Share Posted 6 January , 2005 A pagri (or pag, by the old sweats) was the folds of cloth worn around the tropical helmet. It originated during the Mutiny and was first soaked with liquid to provide a cooling effect. It would also be unwound to form a type a shade. By the South African war, it was purely ornamental. DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 6 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 January , 2005 Thanks Doc. Am I right here in that it was worn like a turban for example? if so I can see the logic of a badge having loops providing it doesn't have to be unwound everytime its taken off the head ? And also know as a pugaree? Can anyone provide a photo of British troops so attired? Thanks Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 6 January , 2005 Share Posted 6 January , 2005 A pagri, as it is called and worn on the UK/Commonwealth foreign service helmet (Sun helmet if you prefer) should not be confused with a turban although they are often called the same. Both originated in India I suppose, but a Turban can also be called a Safa, Pagri, Lungi, Loonghi or Longhee. It is used to describe the headdress of the Indian soldiers. It is the scarf of cloth wrapped around the head. To further confuse you, for Sikhs and Dogras it is wrapped around a "pug" or skullcap in white or red cloth. A pagri or "pag" badge originally had a long slider to insert into the folds of cloth of the pagri on the helmet. Later, double prongs were used, and the necessary long length of them indicated a pagri badge. Pagri's can also be called puggree's. Remember, a pagri on a foreign service helment is not the same thing, although it may be called that, as the cloth wrapping around the head of an Indian soldier. Some Indian regiments wore badges inserted into their turbans or pagris, some did not. But that is another story...... Throughly confused now? Don't be concerned, it took me a while to figure it all out as well. DrB Pictures? Check any of the old colonial war photos from the 19th Century. Those should give you some ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 7 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2005 Thanks Doc, I think I'll need to wrap some damp cloth around my head amd lie down to cool off after that little lot!! Seriously though it's an interesting subject and your guidance is much appreciated, but it looks like the badge has drawn a bit of a blank! Regards, Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 7 January , 2005 Share Posted 7 January , 2005 Keith how big is it? it reminds me of a brunswick star, originally dogs but also worn as a cap badge definitely not a pagri badge though, i'll post a pic of some later showing the long slider chris brunswick star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 7 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2005 Hi Chris, It's roughly the same size as the regulars' badge. I've checked Churchill & Westlake's collars book and it can't see it in there. Thanks, Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 7 January , 2005 Share Posted 7 January , 2005 as promised two pagri sliders ( both on converted HPCs) right hand one is the more common, left hand one has a hinged slider, unusual and i've not worked out why it's hinged yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 harribobs...just speculation, but the wearer might be "one on the cheap" and the hinge could facilitate the mounting of the hpc where it belongs, on the Home Service Helmet. He could then also use it as a pag badge. DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 9 January , 2005 Share Posted 9 January , 2005 harribobs...just speculation, but the wearer might be "one on the cheap" and the hinge could facilitate the mounting of the hpc where it belongs, on the Home Service Helmet. He could then also use it as a pag badge. DrB it's a good idea................but there are 4 fastening loops on the back of a HPC (centre, 9, 12 and 3 o clock) and the slider has beean attached at the 12 o clock position and the other loops removed it is actually one of the most polished out badges i have ever seen, whether that is significant i don't know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 9 January , 2005 Share Posted 9 January , 2005 and in an attempt to return Keith's thread to him from John Gaylors book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 9 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2005 definitely not a pagri badge though, i'll post a pic of some later showing the long slider chris Hi Chris Thanks for the pictures posted, most interesting and as you point out my reason for thinking it a pagri badge fixings down to Gaylor illustration. Shame that the actual photos of badges in his books don't show fixings. Regards, Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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