Help with uniform identification

[DianaL]

Hi all, I am hoping someone here can help me out. A cousin and myself are having a disagreement about a picture... the first pic below is of my Grandfather, William Macdonald and although I have dozens of pictures taken of him, before and after the war, this is the only one we have showing him wearing his uniform (I don't know the date it was taken). The second pic was given to my cousin, by an Aunt, who said it was of my Grandmother and Grandfather, and I am 150% sure that it is not. I knew them both very well and can say with certainty that I have no idea who these people are. What I am asking, is if someone can look at the uniform of the man in the 2nd pic and tell me something about it (compared with the uniform in the first pic). I see that the hats are quite different. My Grandpa was living in Saskatchewan, Canada when he enlisted if that helps. Anything anyone can tell me would be of great help. Thanks in advance!!

[FROGSMILE]

The first man is a Sergeant in a Canadian unit, who wears unfortunately for the chances of an ID, one of the hundreds of unit badges styled around the Maple leaf, but he wears a British issue tunic and so was likely in Britain or France & Flanders.  The cap is the soft, easily stowable ‘trench’ style issued in 1916.  He has typical Canadian collar badges, a 3-row shoulder title that might assist with a unit ID and he appears to wear a medal ribbon, but I cannot make out what it is.  An MM or Croix De Guerre seems the most likely.

 

The second photo shows a better quality cloth jacket with scalloped pocket flaps, probable leather buttons and a stiff style of cap that is associated more with an officer, or sergeant major (warrant officer).  It might be a photographic illusion, but both people in this image look female to me.

Edited 27 March , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

The 28th (Northwest) Battalion and 68th (Regina) Battalion were Saskatchewan recruited battalions whose cap badges match that in your first photo.  His shoulder title may permit a more decisive identification, and I would suggest that you post your query on the CEF Study Group Forum (Insignia Section) where the real experts reside.

[DianaL]

Thanks so much for your replies. The first pic is of my Grandfather and I have all of his war records, medals and such, so no identification of those are necessary. The 2nd photo (I agree, the man does look quite feminine to me as well!) is the one I am concerned with. Is his uniform Canadian?

[gordon92]

59 minutes ago, DianaL said:

Thanks so much for your replies. The first pic is of my Grandfather and I have all of his war records, medals and such, so no identification of those are necessary. The 2nd photo (I agree, the man does look quite feminine to me as well!) is the one I am concerned with. Is his uniform Canadian?

Yes.  He also has a Maple Leaf cap badge. However, with no shoulder title I do not think you can get a more definitive unit identification other than possibly the 28th or 68th Battalions, the two Saskatchewan battalions mentioned previously.  There were other Saskatchewan battalions with Maple Leaf badges, but all of those had scrolls underneath which are not seen on your photo.

[DianaL]

Thanks again. What I am trying to find out, is if both men are the same person. I don't think they are as the man with the woman looks nothing like my Grandpa, but my cousin swears he is, because an Aunt told him so. My Aunt said the pic was taken when Grandpa was leaving when he enlisted. I don't really know what questions to ask because I am not educated enough on the topic to know what to ask. Would the uniform of the man in the bottom pic be something a newly enlisted man would be wearing?  I am not trying to find out which battalion or anything else like that.  Both pics show different hats - is this usual for them to have different hats at different times or locations? I believe Grandpa enlisted in 1916 and I know he was sent to France. I have all the records, but they are unavaliable to me right now to check.

[MBrockway]

Nose, chin, cheekbones and brows all seem a fairly good match ...

[Wexflyer]

Seems to me that the first photo shows a much older, more haggard person than the second. But two years of war would probably be able to do that. You say you have records and know of medals - when did he get his medals? That would help to date the 1st photo. as he is wearing a medal ribbon (as already mentioned).

[Dragoon]

Hello,

If you look at the second photo, there seems to be hair below the peak of the cap, and the sides also, and appears purched on the head, I do believe this is a woman, wearing her husbands uniform. Hugging her daughter, she does seem younger.

I maybe completely wrong, but it does appear this way.

 

Chris

Edited 28 March , 2018 by Dragoon

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Dragoon said:

Hello,

If you look at the second photo, there seems to be hair below the peak of the cap, and the sides also, and appears purched on the head, I do believe this is a woman, wearing her husbands uniform. Hugging her daughter, she does seem younger.

I maybe completely wrong, but it does appear this way.

 

Chris

 

This was my impression too - a female dressed up.

The jacket seems to be of good quality cloth and could perhaps be a type worn by early Canadian volunteers while still in Canada.

[Dragoon]

17 hours ago, DianaL said:

Hi all, I am hoping someone here can help me out. A cousin and myself are having a disagreement about a picture... the first pic below is of my Grandfather, William Macdonald and although I have dozens of pictures taken of him, before and after the war, this is the only one we have showing him wearing his uniform (I don't know the date it was taken). The second pic was given to my cousin, by an Aunt, who said it was of my Grandmother and Grandfather, and I am 150% sure that it is not. I knew them both very well and can say with certainty that I have no idea who these people are. What I am asking, is if someone can look at the uniform of the man in the 2nd pic and tell me something about it (compared with the uniform in the first pic). I see that the hats are quite different. My Grandpa was living in Saskatchewan, Canada when he enlisted if that helps. Anything anyone can tell me would be of great help. Thanks in advance!!

Maybe the, what we think is a lady, is your Grandmother wearing Williams uniform? While holding her daughter, your Great Aunt.

FEOGSMILE said the jacket is of good quality, but its not fitting well on the wearer, so another lean towards a woman wearing his uniform.

Food for thought, I do think it is a woman though.

 

Chris

[ss002d6252]

50 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Maybe the, what we think is a lady, is your Grandmother wearing Williams uniform? While holding her daughter, your Great Aunt.

FEOGSMILE said the jacket is of good quality, but its not fitting well on the wearer, so another lean towards a woman wearing his uniform.

Food for thought, I do think it is a woman though.

 

Chris

I agree, looks like a female wearing the uniform.

Craig

[gordon92]

Another observation to further bolster the female hypothesis: The jacket in the second photo is buttoned right side over left in the fashion of a female garment.

[DianaL]

3 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Another observation to further bolster the female hypothesis: The jacket in the second photo is buttoned right side over left in the fashion of a female garment.

But were there women's uniforms like this at this time? I

 

[DianaL]

8 hours ago, Dragoon said:

Maybe the, what we think is a lady, is your Grandmother wearing Williams uniform? While holding her daughter, your Great Aunt.

FEOGSMILE said the jacket is of good quality, but its not fitting well on the wearer, so another lean towards a woman wearing his uniform.

Food for thought, I do think it is a woman though.

 

 

Chris

I do not think this is my Grandmother, possibly my Great-Aunt as it looks much like her. I am really leaning towards the uniformed person being female as well and since this picture was in with others taken at a school, likely a play with a woman playing the part of the soldier. It is making a great deal of sense. (My Grandmother's daughter would not be my Great Aunt - she would either be my Mother or my Aunt and neither one of them were born yet when this pic was taken)

 

[Dragoon]

21 minutes ago, DianaL said:

I do not think this is my Grandmother, possibly my Great-Aunt as it looks much like her. I am really leaning towards the uniformed person being female as well and since this picture was in with others taken at a school, likely a play with a woman playing the part of the soldier. It is making a great deal of sense. (My Grandmother's daughter would not be my Great Aunt - she would either be my Mother or my Aunt and neither one of them were born yet when this pic was taken)

 

Sorry, got muddled, meant to say could be your Grandmother or a Great Aunt.

A play sounds like a possibility, all interesting stuff.

 

Chris

Edited 28 March , 2018 by Dragoon

[asanewt]

Is the "female" wearing a medal ribbon too?

[MBrockway]

On 30/03/2018 at 06:08, asanewt said:

Is the "female" wearing a medal ribbon too?

 

That medal ribbon being on the apparent left breast also eliminates the possibility that the photo has been printed from an inverted negative as per this example ...

 

 

 

... so the SD jacket is definitely tailored to button right over left following the female convention.

 

Note also that the wrist watch is being worn on the left arm.

 

There are several other examples here on the Forum of non-military female family members wearing uniforms, but I cannot turn one up quickly!

 

Mark

 

 

[Missing Something]

Whats his name? Where was he living in Sask? May be able to help via his military records. Do you know his service number?

 

[Keith Brannen]

Hands look masculine to me, and the wrist watch on the left arm, or a pocket watch attached to the sleeve, seems to suggest a man rather than a woman.

Edited 10 July , 2018 by Keith Brannen