Field Ambulance No3

[kelly]

Morning all

 

I'm currently researching a John Gardner Pickering, 1st Battalion Northumberland fusiliers, who died at field hospital no3 that I understand was in the Ypres sector on the date of his death 08/11/14

I have discovered through another casualty who was treated at the same hospital that it was apparently sited at Saar Welhoo's School in Ypres

Is there anyone with knowledge and a plan that can confirm my research

 

Regards

Garry

 

 

[sotonmate]

Garry

 

There are two 1914 entries in Forces War Records for No 1822 Lance Sergeant John Gardner Pickering of the NF which may help you along the way. You need a subscription or a kind soul here who has access.

War Diary WO95/1259/1 shows a base at L'Ecole Bienfaisant near Ypres from 25 Oct 1914. War Diary a bit scant at this time. Entry on Nov 2 and then nothing for a week till Nov 9 when reference was made to a busy week dealing with around 3000 wounded. No names !

[TEW]

Not certain you mean 3 FA. You mention field hospital no. 3 which may be 3CCS (called hospitals during early part of war). 1/Northumberland Fus were 3rd Div and 3FA were 1st division. Pickering's FAs should be 7,8 & 9. Quite possible he got mixed up with 3FA if the 2 divs were in the same vicinity.

I can check 3CCS location later.

TEW

[kelly]

23 hours ago, TEW said:

Not certain you mean 3 FA. You mention field hospital no. 3 which may be 3CCS (called hospitals during early part of war). 1/Northumberland Fus were 3rd Div and 3FA were 1st division. Pickering's FAs should be 7,8 & 9. Quite possible he got mixed up with 3FA if the 2 divs were in the same vicinity.

I can check 3CCS location later.

TEW

Hi

Many thanks for your help, I look forward to anything you could find

 

Regards

[kelly]

On ‎28‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 17:41, sotonmate said:

Garry

 

There are two 1914 entries in Forces War Records for No 1822 Lance Sergeant John Gardner Pickering of the NF which may help you along the way. You need a subscription or a kind soul here who has access.

War Diary WO95/1259/1 shows a base at L'Ecole Bienfaisant near Ypres from 25 Oct 1914. War Diary a bit scant at this time. Entry on Nov 2 and then nothing for a week till Nov 9 when reference was made to a busy week dealing with around 3000 wounded. No names !

Hi

 

Thanks for your help, I have discovered via another man from another unit that the FA or CCS was at a place called Staar Welphoo's School in Ypres, any help gratefully received

 

Regards

[TEW]

I can see he has 2 Soldiers' Effects record under #1822. One does say his place of death was 3rd Field Ambulance, Ypres. This would have to be the L'Ecole Bienfaisant mentioned by sotonmate. He has no known grave, presumably he would have been buried nearby and his grave subsequently lost.

 

Still not sure why a man from 3rd Division would end up dieing with a 1st Division FA but as Soldiers' Effects says so will stick to that at present.

 

The diary for 1/Northumberland Fusiliers has casualty lists for Killed, Wounded and Missing for at least Sept-Nov 1914. There are 13 sheets for November and a lot of missing reported for 8/11/14 but Pickering is not on any list.

 

I can find nothing on Saar/Staar Welhoo's School in Ypres. Can you give the name/number of the other casualty?

 

The casualties mentioned in the 1/Northumberland Fusiliers diary would give more names to work on as to where wounded were sent, but why is Pickering not mentioned?

TEW

[kelly]

17 hours ago, TEW said:

I can see he has 2 Soldiers' Effects record under #1822. One does say his place of death was 3rd Field Ambulance, Ypres. This would have to be the L'Ecole Bienfaisant mentioned by sotonmate. He has no known grave, presumably he would have been buried nearby and his grave subsequently lost.

 

Still not sure why a man from 3rd Division would end up dieing with a 1st Division FA but as Soldiers' Effects says so will stick to that at present.

 

The diary for 1/Northumberland Fusiliers has casualty lists for Killed, Wounded and Missing for at least Sept-Nov 1914. There are 13 sheets for November and a lot of missing reported for 8/11/14 but Pickering is not on any list.

 

I can find nothing on Saar/Staar Welhoo's School in Ypres. Can you give the name/number of the other casualty?

 

The casualties mentioned in the 1/Northumberland Fusiliers diary would give more names to work on as to where wounded were sent, but why is Pickering not mentioned?

TEW

Hi Tew

 

Many thanks for your latest post, find the enclosed re the other casualty

6741 Herbert Handley of the 1^st Battalion, Royal Scots Guards who received a wound on the 8^th November and died in the same field hospital the next day, he too was intered at Staar Welphoo’s School

 

The above account was taken from Paul Chapmans book, "Menin Gate North" in memory and mourning.

 

Hope it helps

 

Garry

[TEW]

Garry,

 

I've checked through a few more diaries in detail and found the following;

 

No. 3 Field Ambulance was ordered to the L'Ecole Bienfaience,Ypres at the end of Oct 1914.

They actually opened up as a Divisonal Collecting Station but on 9/11/1914 the CO states that they had become the most advanced Dressing Station due to the progress of the engagement. This is not mentioned in other diaries.

 

As to why a man from 3rd Division ended up with a FA of 1st Division I can add that the casualties admitted to No. 3 FA at L'Ecole Bienfaience from the end of Oct consisted of approximatley 50% 1st Division and 50% 'other' divisions.

 

From 9am 8/11/1914 to 9am 9/11/1914 they admitted 121 other ranks from 'other' divisions and 127 during the previous 24 hours. So, quite feasible for Pickering to end up with No. 3 FA.

 

One would suppose that Pickering would be buried near L'Ecole Bienfaience but the closest ones; Menin Road South and Ramparts Cemetery were not in use at the time of his death. CWGC have 63 men from the 1/Northumberland Fusiliers that died 8/11/1914. 54 of those are on the Menin Gate. The others are spread between Hagle Dump, Bedford House, Sanctury Wood, Divisional Collecting Post, and La Brique Cemeteries. Some of the above are concentrations buried there post-war having been found out in the battle field or taken in from smaller cemeteries.

 

I'm not sure which cemetery 3 FA at L'Ecole Bienfaience would have used in Nov 1914.

 

6741 Herbert Hanley died 9/11/1914 and as far as I can see he died at the same place as Pickering = L'Ecole Bienfaience. He too is commemorated on The Menin Gate.

 

Does Chapman mean Hanley was buried at Staar Welphoo’s School?

 

I can find no record that places 6741 Hanley at Staar Welphoo’s School  nor can I find any reference to such a place.

 

The long way to look at this is to track down service files for the 63 men of the battalion who died on 8/11/14 and you could include the numerous names/numbers given in the diary as wounded and see how they were evacuated and to where.

 

TEW

 

[kelly]

18 hours ago, TEW said:

Garry,

 

I've checked through a few more diaries in detail and found the following;

 

No. 3 Field Ambulance was ordered to the L'Ecole Bienfaience,Ypres at the end of Oct 1914.

They actually opened up as a Divisonal Collecting Station but on 9/11/1914 the CO states that they had become the most advanced Dressing Station due to the progress of the engagement. This is not mentioned in other diaries.

 

As to why a man from 3rd Division ended up with a FA of 1st Division I can add that the casualties admitted to No. 3 FA at L'Ecole Bienfaience from the end of Oct consisted of approximatley 50% 1st Division and 50% 'other' divisions.

 

From 9am 8/11/1914 to 9am 9/11/1914 they admitted 121 other ranks from 'other' divisions and 127 during the previous 24 hours. So, quite feasible for Pickering to end up with No. 3 FA.

 

One would suppose that Pickering would be buried near L'Ecole Bienfaience but the closest ones; Menin Road South and Ramparts Cemetery were not in use at the time of his death. CWGC have 63 men from the 1/Northumberland Fusiliers that died 8/11/1914. 54 of those are on the Menin Gate. The others are spread between Hagle Dump, Bedford House, Sanctury Wood, Divisional Collecting Post, and La Brique Cemeteries. Some of the above are concentrations buried there post-war having been found out in the battle field or taken in from smaller cemeteries.

 

I'm not sure which cemetery 3 FA at L'Ecole Bienfaience would have used in Nov 1914.

 

6741 Herbert Hanley died 9/11/1914 and as far as I can see he died at the same place as Pickering = L'Ecole Bienfaience. He too is commemorated on The Menin Gate.

 

Does Chapman mean Hanley was buried at Staar Welphoo’s School?

 

I can find no record that places 6741 Hanley at Staar Welphoo’s School  nor can I find any reference to such a place.

 

The long way to look at this is to track down service files for the 63 men of the battalion who died on 8/11/14 and you could include the numerous names/numbers given in the diary as wounded and see how they were evacuated and to where.

 

TEW

 

Good morning Tew,

Many thanks for your latest update there is some interesting information.

Do you think its possible the L'Ecole Bienfaience was based at Vlamertinge, the reason I ask is my understanding of a CCS would need to be out of the range of any German artillery, I visited Hagle Dump about a fortnight ago.

Re Herbert Chapman I got the information from page 183 (I think) from the book I mentioned, still its not an issue as I have more than I need so thank you so very much for your help.

 

Garry

[petestarling]

L'Ecole Bienfacence was on the Menin Road. If you look on First World War maps of Ypres it is on there.

[Chris_Baker]

Four Field Ambulances were located within a few hundred yards of the Ecole de Bienfaisance on 9 November 1914.

 

The war diary of 7th Field Ambulance of 3rd Division includes this note: "I next visited No. 3 Field Ambulance, commanded by Major A W Hooper RAMC, who told me as much as he could of the situation. I understand that his Ambulance, owing to especially good accommodation, received most of the casualties from the firing line and that there were plenty of Field Ambulances for the work there was to do".

 

Many burials from what had been the cemetery at Ecole de Bienfaisance were cleared into Bedford House Cemetery after the war.

 

I stand to be corrected but I believe reference to Starr Welphoo's to be at best a mangled misreading of a name and at worst a complete red herring.

[kelly]

8 hours ago, petestarling said:

L'Ecole Bienfacence was on the Menin Road. If you look on First World War maps of Ypres it is on there.

Hi Pete

 

You have me on this one, could you perhaps be a little more specific and dare I ask supply a map

 

Regards

8 hours ago, petestarling said:

L'Ecole Bienfacence was on the Menin Road. If you look on First World War maps of Ypres it is on there.

 

[Chris_Baker]

The Ecole de Bienfaisance is the large building on the right. The Menin Road runs across it to the north.

[kelly]

2 minutes ago, Chris_Baker said:

The Ecole de Bienfaisance is the large building on the right. The Menin Road runs across it to the north.

Good evening Chris

 

This is excellent news, thank you

 

Regards

[kelly]

33 minutes ago, Chris_Baker said:

The Ecole de Bienfaisance is the large building on the right. The Menin Road runs across it to the north.

Hi All

 

Using googe earth I think I may have found it, me thinks its now a green field of some description that can be found by taking the 1st right hand turning as you leave the Menin Gate.

 

Simply follow the road until you come sort of mini roundabout and its their on your left if you have the canal on your right

 

Do we agree 

 

Regards

 

[TEW]

There are some maps that refer to L'Ecole de Bienfaisance de l' Etat, at least that's what I think it says. I've not read Paul Chapman's book so can't really make any comments but  from this topic he seems to be saying that men who died at L'Ecole Bienfaisance with No. 3 FA were buried at this enigmatic Starr Welphoo place. It would be interesting to find the source of this information.

 

It would appear from Chris' post that they were originally buried at L'Ecole Bienfaisance and moved post war to Bedford House Cemetery but now have 'no known grave' and are commemorated elsewhere.

 

Just to add that 3 Field Ambulance were not running a hospital or CCS, they were running a Divisional Collecting Station that had evolved into a dressing station

TEW

[grantmal]

Garry,

The 3rd Field Ambulance diary of 28 October provides some details of L'Ecole Bienfaisant:

During today numerous things were done to make this building L’ECOLE BIENFAISANT into a suitable Divisional Collecting Station. The number of patients are greatly increasing. The authorities were most obliging and kind in lending useful articles and putting their rooms and kitchen at our disposal. The wounded on admission have their names taken at the door where the office is, then into another corridor where a restaurant is run by The [Rev Somebody] and so on to be dressed. One large room is for dangerous cases, another four serious cases and the corridors for slight cases, and close inspection of the wounded makes dealing with such a large number of patients very necessary.

9 November: This has been a very busy week since last note. The number who have been treated and sent down as wounded exceeds 3000 now. Since we first formed this particular divisional collecting station it has become the most advanced dressing station by the progress of the engagements. The morning sick in large numbers come here which entails a considerable amount of extra work and arrangement. Large shells fell close today [something] the stables and wounding a horse. The glass windows and roof have also been slightly damaged here. Arrangements have been made for some time for transferring patients to the cellars, in which straw has been placed.

The No.1 Motor Ambulance Convoy diary chips in the following day with this very handy sketch of the action above, with a description....

.....These shells make a hole 12 feet deep and about 12 yards in diameter. Had one struck the building the whole edifice would have been destroyed, hence the necessity of evacuating the sick at once. The explosion shakes the ground for half a mile round.

Grant