A curiosity - wooden bullets?

[DavidOwen]

Hi all

Whilst perusing contract related stuff for another thread I came across a record of a destroyed document which was an offer by a cabinet making firm to supply "Wooden bullets"  http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2662596  It is not clear whether the offer was ever taken up.

Would these be for training purposes?

 

The firm (Frederick Tibbenham, Ipswich) also made aircraft propellers and other stuff during the war. http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/remembering-ipswich-firm-frederick-tibbenham-wartime-prop-makers-1-4368356

 

Regards

 

David

[Terry_Reeves]

Drill rounds I believe.

 

TR

[T8HANTS]

Wrong war I know, but didn't Bren guns use wooden bulleted blanks in order to cycle the action.  Was there a similar application for WW1 Emma Gee's?

[DavidOwen]

1 hour ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Drill rounds I believe.

 

TR

Thanks Terry

[charlie962]

An old thread here goes into some detail.

Charlie

[squirrel]

7 hours ago, T8HANTS said:

Wrong war I know, but didn't Bren guns use wooden bulleted blanks in order to cycle the action.  Was there a similar application for WW1 Emma Gee's?

Yes,  procedures described in the .303 inch Machine Guns and Small Arms booklet 40/W.O./3288 Ordnance College (Revised1917) for Lewis and Maxim/Vickers guns both for instruction/training and maintenance.

 

Booklet also covers Rifles, Short M.L.E, Rifles Charger Loading M.L.E., Rifles Magazine .303 inch pattern 1914 and Hotchkiss Gun .303

Edited 11 March , 2018 by squirrel

[DavidOwen]

42 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

An old thread here goes into some detail.

Charlie

 

33 minutes ago, squirrel said:

Yes,  procedures described in the .303 inch Machine Guns and Small Arms booklet 40/W.O./3288 Ordnance College (Revised1917) for Lewis and Maxim/Vickers guns both for instruction/training and maintenance.

Thanks both, becoming more and more interesting!

David

[trajan]

I am pretty certain that the German army used these as well for training purposes - can look up if needed.

[horrocks]

4 hours ago, T8HANTS said:

Wrong war I know, but didn't Bren guns use wooden bulleted blanks in order to cycle the action.  Was there a similar application for WW1 Emma Gee's?

 

We certainly did in the CCF at school. They could do some damage. One of the boys shot up a wooden shelter out on the cricket fields once with a Bren and drill rounds. It was a bit of a mess!

 

I don't think that boy was me, but my memory is a bit foggy now...

[303man]

Mk III, MkIV and MkVIII 303 Drill rounds all had wooden bullets.

 

Edited 11 March , 2018 by 303man

[Minefield Mc]

7 hours ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Drill rounds I believe.

 

TR

I’d agree with that.  I can remember wooden “drill rounds” during my time as a young cadet many years ago. 

[MikB]

3 hours ago, horrocks said:

 

We certainly did in the CCF at school. They could do some damage. One of the boys shot up a wooden shelter out on the cricket fields once with a Bren and drill rounds. It was a bit of a mess!

 

I don't think that boy was me, but my memory is a bit foggy now...

 

There was supposed to be a yellow-painted 'half-moon attachment' in the Bren's flash hider when using bulleted blank. This shredded the wooden bullets into a light shower of small splinters. I can remember seeing this from a few yards away and only about 20 degrees out of the line of fire without worrying about any risk.

 

Even without the attachment, the wooden bullets were so light and insubstantial that I think he'd've had to be quite close to the shelter to damage it.

 

I would think that any gas-operated MG would use these for practice purposes, though I doubt they'd provide enough rearward momentum for recoil-operated. 

[horrocks]

Sans 'half moon attachment' and yes, it was quite close, and the shelter was insubstantial.

 

There were, though, consequences!

[Retlaw]

Several 1000's of rounds in .303 were made for WW2 films, "A Bridge to Far" is one in which they were used, I ended up with two in my former collection, the bullets were stained blue, one was for the Bren an the other for the Vickers, and marked accordingly, but when I saw the film I laughed, the weapons were being used by actors dressed as Germans, and I could see the bits of wood shavings flying about  as the disrupters chewed the wooden bullets  up, they were  added to the barrel ends to prevent accidents,  and make the weapons cycle better.

Over the years I've seen some real clangers in the choice of weapons, and which side is using them  in battle scenes.

[rickpreston@nasuwt.net]

They were certainly used for practice and drill rounds.  

During our researches into the 201 men and 1 women who are on Penrith Town War memorial which is due to be completed for Nov. 2018, I came across Private Ben Horn No. 147789 7th Border Regiment. He was issued with live bullets instead of wooden ones and accidentally shot another soldier. Charged with Manslaughter but found not guilty but was found guilty of a lesser charge and got 20 days Field Punishment No 1. the officer who issued the bullets was censured. His army papers are on Ancestry, an interesting read.

 

Richard.

[Geertsen]

Here's an example of a wooden drill round I have in my collection if anyone's interested to see. This one has holes drilled in the side, another drill round I have has pressed / indented fluting up the sides.

[MikB]

I've always been surprised that wooden bullets were ever used for inert drill rounds.

 

You'd think a couple of severe chamberings would so damage the bullet as to wreck its feeding properties.

Edited 13 March , 2018 by MikB

[Knotty]

22 hours ago, Geertsen said:

Here's an example of a wooden drill round I have in my collection

 

I have one the same dated 1942, not as red as yours, a bit washed out.

 

John

[ServiceRumDiluted]

21 hours ago, MikB said:

I've always been surprised that wooden bullets were ever used for inert drill rounds.

 

You'd think a couple of severe chamberings would so damage the bullet as to wreck its feeding properties.

 

A few drill rounds from my collection, all from upto 1920, and unfortunately all but one in relic condition.  The one second from Rt shows signs of being squashed by just such severe chambering. The ones centre and 2nd from Lt look identical but one has a large lump of what I think is wooden dowel in the case. Only the one on the Rt has legible headstamps, being 11 R/I\L VI and a cancelling ring.

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, ServiceRumDiluted said:

second from Rt

Almost looks like the pencil from the gift tin ?

[Geertsen]

Here's another drill round I have which looks to be the same as ServiceRumDiluted posted above. It has the R /|\ L and VI markings. 

[trajan]

On 3/11/2018 at 21:35, 303man said:

Mk III, MkIV and MkVIII 303 Drill rounds all had wooden bullets.

 

 

Well, this gives me a hint on when I last looked into GWF - my golly gosh, 11 MARCH - 14 days ago! So, wooden German bullet examples needed! I blame it on the need to earn a crust for meself and the family...

[pioneecorps]

These are in my collection, dated 1914-1915.

 

Regards

Gerwyn

 

 

[trajan]

There is a whole section in Les armes déloyales des allemands by Francis Marre (Paris 1916) on the German use of wooden bullets in action... According to the text of this pamphlet, most of which needs to be taken with a truck-load of salt, these were used in September 1915 on the Champagne front for 'trench warfare' at a range of less than 15 metres. The pamphlet claimed that these wooden bullets contained a transverse soft iron rod and steel cap with a lead washer at the base, and were a form of dum-dum bullet, as once the iron tip hit bone the bullet would split and the lead washer would fly off in all directions, and "produisent les effroyables blessures".

 

The same pamplet, by the way, has a series of examples of these 'unfair' German weapons. Namely: Balles explosibles, Projectiles empoisonnés, Balles expansives, Balles retournées, Balles en bois, Baïonnettes à dents de scie, and Hameçons et crochets d'acier, the last being found in tins of food imported from America and destined for the French army...

 

On which note, Happy New Year to all following this and other threads on GWF!

 

Trajan

[DavidOwen]

Thanks Trajan, most interesting!

Good wishes to you and yours for 2019.