ARTILLERY AT MONCHY LE PREUX .

[steve140968]

Can anyone please help me with some information regarding British artillery at the 2nd battle of the Scarpe (Monchy le Preux) in April 1917 ? What British artillery pieces would have been present and in what numbers ? Thanks , Steve .

[Greg1]

18 pounders and 4.5 inch howitzers in the divisional artillery for certain probably 60 pounders and 8 Inch howitzers as well.

Greg

[truthergw]

According to Official History, 60 pdrs., 18 pdrs., 4.5 Howitzers, 6inch, 8inch and 9.2 inch howitzers.

[steve140968]

Thanks guys , that's a great help ! Steve .

[Robert Dunlop]

Farndale notes two things about the British artillery fire for the Second Battle of the Scarpe. Firstly, counter-battery fire was relatively poor and the British never achieved dominance. Second, two brigades of RFA fired their creeping barrage on the same zone. This left a hole in the barrage, which allowed the local defenders to take a heavy toll on the British attackers. This is the first time I have come across such a mistake.

Robert

[steve140968]

Thanks Robert , this sounds very interesting . What do you mean when you say 'counter-battery fire was relatively poor' ? Also what is the meaning of the term 'creeping barrage'? Many thanks ,

Steve .

[Robert Dunlop]

Steve

Counter-battery fire refers to the use of some of the attacker's artillery to target the enemy's artillery. The aim was to stop the enemy from firing a barrage that would knock out your attacking infantry, bearing in mind that the enemy artillery was the biggest killer of your infantry. The Battle of Amiens is noted by General Monash as the first occasion where fewer Australians were killed by artillery than were killed by small arms fire. This was a tribute to the way in which the German artillery was virtually completely nullified.

Counter-battery fire depended on detecting the enemy's artillery and then using long-range guns (usually) to attack them. Detection was by aerial reconnaisance, using aircraft or captive balloons, flash-ranging (triangulating the location of a battery according to where the muzzle flashes were visible) and sound-ranging (triangulating the location of batteries according to the origin of the sound or pressure waves generated when the guns fired). Once detected, enemy gun batteries would be engaged with gas shells to suppress the gunners or with HE to destroy/suppress them. The latter method was less effective. Sometimes, a preparatory barrage would be stopped to entice the Germans to fire prematurely. This would expose their hidden batteries, which would be quickly spotted and then targetted. Similarly, aircraft would attempt to constantly overfly the German rear areas to detect gun flashes during the actual battle. The signalling system would then enable accurate gunfire to be bought rapidly to bear on these German guns from allied batteries that were dedicated to this task.

A 'creeping' barrage would start as a standing wall of shell fire that moved forward a set distance at set time intervals. It was calculated to enable the infantry to keep pace so the time intervals might be longer if the ground was very muddy. Once the first objective was reached, the wall of shells might stop just beyond that point, and then be advanced again as the next wave came through. 18-pounders would be used to generate the wall closest to the infantry, with 4.5" and 6" howitzers supplementing this with secondary and tertiary lines of explosives in advance of this. The aim became one of suppression rather than destruction of the enemy, making the machine gunners and riflemen stay in their dugouts until the infantry arrived. Mopping up teams (which the French called 'nettoyeurs') were vital to clear out the dugouts. Otherwise, the Germans emerged behind the British and shot them down, something that happened in some of the early attacks on the Somme for example, and when the Americans attacked the Hindenburg Line in 1918.

Robert

[steve140968]

Thankyou very much Robert for the explanations . What sort of ranges are we talking about for these artillery pieces ? Steve .

[Robert Dunlop]

Maximum ranges (approximate):

18 pounder - 6,500 yards

4.5" howitzer - 7,300 yards

4.7" gun - 10,000 yards

60 pounder - 12,300 yards

6" howitzer - 9,500 yards

9.2" Mk II howitzer - 14,000 yards

15" howitzer - 10,800 yards

9.2" railway gun - 22,600 yards

14" railway gun - at least 18 miles

Note that guns and howitzers would not normally be used at these ranges. Once an infantry advance got beyond about 1500 yards, it was hard for the artillery, notably the 18-pounders and 4.5" howitzers, to provide adequate support. Often field guns would be assigned to get forward once the advance had started but this was no easy task with the ground so churned up and the congestion of the battlefield.

The heavier artillery was used for counter-battery work and to target strong points, forming up areas, and other key targets in the rear areas.

Robert

[steve140968]

Thankyou very much Robert . There was quite a selection , right through the ranges . I wouldn't think that the larger artillery would have been incredibly accurate at the top end of there ranges , - 18 miles is an incredibly long distance . Would these perhaps have been used for shelling large areas ? Would what they were firing , eg , high explosive / gas or shrapnel have had any bearing on 'how far'? Also Robert were shrapnel shells designed to eplode in the air ? Many thanks ,

Steve .