Private William George Edwards - Flanders & NIEDERZWEHREN Cemetery

[Gary Greene]

Hello everyone reading,

 

I have just started researching a family member who was one of the many lost in the Great War.

 

The soldier in question is Private William George Edwards - Regimental No. G/16039. I believe he died in France & Flanders 6th November 1918 according to records we have found via Ancestry.co.uk - Image below.

 

However, I have conflict and confusion as I have also found a Private William George Edwards - same Regimental number G/16039 listed as being buried at NIEDERZWEHREN Cemetery.

 

This is a long way from Flanders and I am questioning that this would have happened - hence the uncertainty.

 

The first states he died in France, in Flanders, yet he is buried in Germany at the POW camp, Niederzwehren according to the second. It seems unlikely to me that his body would have been moved that far for burial.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts? Would really appreciate any pointers.

 

Is there any way to search Great War records that will tie a soldiers name to civilian connections in the same way say a marriage certificate shows maiden names and fathers/mothers names etc?

 

Thank you in huge anticipation  and thank you to Peter and Chaz for their initial suggestions.

 

Gary

 

the soldier?

 

 

[Phil Evans]

Age 19 at the time of his death and came from Chiddingfold?

 

This looks like it may be him, even though the battalion is wrong, he is under George and there is no service number on his file: ICRC listing

The date and place of death matches - Goettingen PoW Hospital.

 

Phil

[Gary Greene]

11 minutes ago, Phil Evans said:

Age 19 at the time of his death and came from Chiddingfold?

 

This looks like it may be him, even though the battalion is wrong, he is under George and there is no service number on his file: ICRC listing

The date and place of death matches - Goettingen PoW Hospital.

 

Phil

Hmm. Cheers for your suggestion Phil but not sure this is our guy. Don't recognise the place name in Surrey as being connected to the family through records we have. We had always assumed that he was KIA in Flander, never a POW.

 

Gary

[DavidOwen]

The CWGC records only one Edwards WG number 16039 as being a casualty (on 6/11/1918) and he is indeed the one buried at the POW camp. He served in 11th Battalion The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment). As he would have been in the France and Flanders Theatre at the time of his capture then that might account for the confusion?

 

David

Edited 17 February , 2018 by DavidOwen
spelling

[Phil Evans]

Is G/16039 definitely your man?

I am 99% happy that the three records are for the same man.Witley and Chiddingfold are within 3 miles of each other. The CWGC record matches the ICRC for date and location. Soldiers Died (the Ancestry record) will not differentiate between Flanders and Germany.

 

Edit: I've just found a second index card for him - PA26702 shows he was born Wandsworth 26/6/1898 and confirms that he was resident in Chiddingfold. Also gives his service number.

 

Phil

 

 

[Gary Greene]

1 minute ago, Phil Evans said:

Is G/16039 definitely your man?

I am 99% happy that the three records are for the same man.Witley and Chiddingfold are within 3 miles of each other. The CWGC record matches the ICRC for date and location. Soldiers Died (the Ancestry record) will not differentiate between Flanders and Germany.

 

Edit: I've just found a second index card for him - PA26702 shows he was born Wandsworth 26/6/1898 and confirms that he was resident in Chiddingfold. Also gives his service number.

 

Phil

 

 

Yes, my apologies Phil. Witley is indeed 'just down the road'. Just never heard that place name before. I'll do some more checking. Thanks very much

[RussT]

The Soldiers' Effects Record for G/16039 William George Edwards shows that he died as a PoW in Goettingen Hospital, consistent with other credible records posted in this thread.

 

If the only reason for your belief in his place of death being in "France & Flanders" is from his SDGW record, then I would suggest that is an ill-founded assumption because the SDGW records are known to contain ambiguities, especially in terms of place of death.

 

Regards

 

Russ

Edited 17 February , 2018 by RussT

[Gary Greene]

1 minute ago, RussT said:

The Soldiers' Effects Record for G/16309 William George Edwards shows that he died as a PoW in Goettingen Hospital, consistent with other credible records posted in this thread.

 

If the only reason for your belief in his place of death being in "France & Flanders" is from his SDGW record, then I would suggest that is an ill-founded assumption because the SDGW records are known to contain ambiguities, especially in terms of place of death.

 

Regards

 

Russ

Yes Russ I agree and am coming to that conclusion.

[RussT]

Just to note further that his War Gratuity (Type 2) was £13, which indicates an enlistment date of August 1916.

 

His estate (unpaid wages whilst in the army) also included £43 19s and 1d, which went to his Father William G (Edwards).

 

It's not quite clear to me how a Private could have amassed such a large estate, even if he were to have been a PoW for a considerable time.

 

Russ

Edited 17 February , 2018 by RussT

[RussT]

Did PoW's physically receive their army pay? Perhaps not - it just accumulated into their account at home.

 

If we take a Private on about 1 shilling per day, then such a large unpaid credit might just have been credible to accumulate if he were to have been made a PoW not long after arriving in theatre.

 

Russ

[chaz]

Gary, it may pay to try to look at his movements on capture and to camp.

he could well have been thought killed by colleagues/officers but Germans picked him up and treated him sympathetically. My great uncle had a ride around France before making his way to Niederzhweren. seems like a lot died at the camp so either it was a "dumping ground" for the more seriously injured or hygene was poor and typhoid or similar took a high amount. 

as I read it

captured at Monchies 23.3.18   died 6th November 1918   nearly made it

Monchies, is possibly a corruption for Monchy-le-preux 6 mile s from Arras next task to find out where the regiment were around MArch 23rd.

Edited 17 February , 2018 by chaz

[chaz]

Fred Gleed is in 111.E.3 if you go up to the cross William is in plot V11. left hand plot between grass pathway and left hand wall on the slope. grave 16 is next to the grass path so D.13 is 6 rows up from the cross. sorry cant be clearer

[Phil Evans]

He was captured at Monchies 23.03.18 and appears to be at Parchim in June 1918, although this may just be a registration exercise.

[chaz]

war diary

 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_2638_5-00000?pid=616355&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26_phsrc%3DuEa1559%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26dbid%3D60779%26_F80088F0%3DP158%26_F80088F0_x%3D1%26gss%3Dangs-d%26rank%3D1%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D11%26h%3D616355%26recoff%3D75%26ml_rpos%3D12%26hovR%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=uEa1559&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=43112_2638_5-00004

Beugny area

5 killed, 317 missing and wounded missing 43

[Gary Greene]

Afternoon Gents.

 

I don't know what sites you guys are researching all this info on but it is utterly fascinating

 

Situation is now that I actually need to actually confirm the identity of the person (William George Edwards). We are working on the assumption at present that this is the person in our family tree but cannot confirm the name for certain, other than its definitely Edwards! Residence in England and connection / timings with Wandsworth in London are all accurate/likely, but I need a census or certificate document to corroborate and confirm his name. So at this stage it is possible your guys are giving me info on someone unrelated - although it's a really interesting history lesson.

 

I have just ordered the marriage certificate of his wife (takes about 10 days to arrive) so until then I'll have to wait. I'm really hoping it's this William George Edwards.

 

Thanks for all your messages thus far.

 

Gary

[Gary Greene]

1 hour ago, RussT said:

Just to note further that his War Gratuity (Type 2) was £13, which indicates an enlistment date of August 1916.

 

His estate (unpaid wages whilst in the army) also included £43 19s and 1d, which went to his Father William G (Edwards).

 

It's not quite clear to me how a Private could have amassed such a large estate, even if he were to have been a PoW for a considerable time.

 

Russ

Wow that's really interesting Russ. I'm so new to this research. I had no idea about any of this.

[Gary Greene]

5 minutes ago, chaz said:

war diary

 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_2638_5-00000?pid=616355&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26_phsrc%3DuEa1559%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26dbid%3D60779%26_F80088F0%3DP158%26_F80088F0_x%3D1%26gss%3Dangs-d%26rank%3D1%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D11%26h%3D616355%26recoff%3D75%26ml_rpos%3D12%26hovR%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=uEa1559&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=43112_2638_5-00004

Beugny area

5 killed, 317 missing and wounded missing 43

Incredible Chaz. As I just said to Russ, I had no idea you could access this kind of information. Thanks for your help.

[RussT]

Do you know the Father's name of this relative? As I mentioned in Post #9 above, the estate of G/16039 William George Edwards was paid to his Father, who was also called William, with middle name initial G - so perhaps also a William George. As you say, it would be useful to find a census record which is consistent with the information you have/know.

 

If you know your relative's father's name, it might help you to rule in/out whether the G/16039 William George Edwards is your man.

 

Russ

Edited 17 February , 2018 by RussT

[Gary Greene]

7 minutes ago, RussT said:

Do you know the Father's name of this relative? As I mentioned in Post #9 above, the estate of G/16309 William George Edwards was paid to his Father, who was also called William, with middle name initial G - so perhaps also a William George. As you say, it would be useful to find a census record which is consistent with the information you have/know.

 

If you know your relative's father's name, it might help you to rule in/out whether the G/16309 William George Edwards is your man.

 

Russ

Absolutely Russ yes I agree. Unfortunately I have nothing to confirm his father's name at this time. But yes you are quite right. The father's identity I think will be the key to confirming this fellow. Your original post made me order 'our relatives' marriage certificate (Violet Edwards nee Horner - his mother) to try and identify his father  Living in hope!

[chaz]

Gary, problem is you need either free access or to justify the expense, Ancestry gave me the regimental records £50/year that was offer price, Forces war records is more money and Find my past is yet more money. if all the info was on one site it would be good but some records are spread about. if you only have one man to look at its expensive, that's why you ask here.

 

1911 census tying up Witley and 1898 dob finds

William Edwards of Langhust Cott, LAnghurst, Witley, Surrey age 46 general labourer born Putney Surrey

Eada age 46 wife born Devonshire

George son 12 born Wandsworth Surrey

Harold son 8 born Marton

[Phil Evans]

Chaz,

 

That ties up with the family I have just found in Merton, Surrey in the 1901 census. Ancestry have the wife indexed as Goda!

RG13; Piece: 656; Folio: 71; Page: 15

 

I'm confused about the marriage though.

The only marriage that I can see between a Violet Horner and William Edwards, is in June Quarter1915, Wandsworth.

Eada died in 1942

 

Phil

 

[chaz]

Phil

looking at 15 years married in 1911 so 1896 but could well be 12 years, Eada on census , strange name would have though Ada or Eva, even Edie for Edith.

[Phil Evans]

Marriage March Quarter 1897.

Wandsworth 1d 725

William Edwards

Eada Webber

 

Edit: 1871 she was living with her family in Witley

Edited 17 February , 2018 by Phil Evans

[PRC]

Hi Gary,

 

So who is the relative you are 99.99% certain of - sounds like its "Violet Edwards nee Horner - his mother", in which case the Wandsworth born man from the census details is a dead end. If the correct family has been identified of the soldier who died in the Goettingen Hospital then would sound like he's not your relative. Or rather he's not the direct relative - no reason as yet to believe that he's not part of your extended family which might account for recurring first names and living in the same part of the country.

 

As you have ordered a marriage certificate it sounds like you know when the marriage took place, so maybe its time to go back to basics. Where and when was Violet born and when and where do you think she married.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[chaz]

Peter has valid point.

the Gleed names on my signature I was led to believe were 5 brothers, we have a newspaper cutting saying great grandfather received letter from the king for sending 5 sons to fight.

that  was until I was informed of John, Royal Engineers who we now think is one of the 5 and one of the others is a cousin..... confusion especially as they lived in the same village yet a couple were born in the next village.