KRRC service number question...and more

[Alan24]

R/33942 RFM. Douglas John Carlisle KRRC

 

This query started with the purchase of the above soldier’s Victory Medal last weekend, in Winchester, quite close to the Rifle Depot. 

 

I’m intrigued as to whether him having TWO KRRC service numbers and a TR Training Reserve number in between those two is unusual.

 

His SWB record shows he enlisted 16.11.1915 and was discharged 07.11.1917 age 20 years & 357 days.

 

This suggests that he enlisted on the day of his 19^th birthday, with a date of birth of 16.11.1896

 

However, FreeBMD, London Schools Register and Baptism Records confirm his date of birth as 16.10.1897 making him only 18 years & 1 month upon enlistment.

 

His Attestation Form shows “19 years” as his age but intriguingly at some point, the following has been added, “Born 16-10-97 (certificate produced)” and at the top of the form is written “Held to serve”

 

Now, I’m assuming that his real age was found out fairly quickly and he was prevented from going overseas until he was of age but not sure why that fact did was not picked up again when the SWB rolls was written.

 

He actually went overseas as part of a draft on 25.10.16 when he would have been 19 years and 9 days old and immediately posted to 2^nd Battalion KRRC from No. 1 Infantry Base Depot, Le Harve.

 

His path runs like this;

 

Living in Hackney, he enlisted 16.11.1915 Central Recruiting Office Whitehall, London

Winchester Rifle Depot 24.11.1915 issued the number R/17005.

Posted 14^th Battalion KRRC Seaford 27.11.1915

Transferred to Training Reserve Battalion on 01.09.1916 when 14/KRRC absorbed into 4^th Reserve Battalion and issued new number TR 13/402 still at Seaford.

Posted overseas 25.10.1916 and issued new number R/33942 at No. 1 Infantry base depot to join 2^nd Btn. KRRC.

 

The medal Rolls around the number R/33942 also list the men in alphabetical order by name in number sequence suggesting this was a larger group transfer, well organised.

 

The second part to this story is just as intriguing…

 

According to FreeBMD he died approx. one year (Q4 1918) after discharge (sickness).

 

Neither the Medal Rolls or MIC note that the man was deceased so assume the Army was never informed.

 

There is no record of him on CWGC.

 

His service record records that he was discharged with Nephritis (inflammation of kidneys) and it was uncertain if this was permanent but may last up to 12 months. It also states that this WAS the result of active service, due to exposure.

 

I think that this could be a case of non-commemoration which needs addressing.

 

My next step is to obtain his Death Certificate and hopefully make a case for him to be remembered in the CWGC memorials.

 

It would be great to find his grave, presumably close to Holy Trinity, Hackney N1. That would complete this story. 

 

All this from buying a medal in an antiques market.

 

Regards

 

Alan.

[Derek Black]

Interesting stuff,

Please keep us all informed of how your investigation goes. He could well be a "non-com".

 

Cheers,

Derek.

[Mark1959]

There is an effects record for him under Douglas Carlisle Carlisle "died since"

Edited 7 February , 2018 by Mark1959

[Alan24]

3 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

There is an effects record for him under Douglas Carlisle Carlisle "died since"

 

Thanks for that, didn't expect to see an effects record. Didn't come up in a general name search under the military heading. 

 

Looks like the first entry was made in 1923 and further updated in 1926. 

 

Looks like £9 was due and payed "To Vote"? Maybe this is some kind of unclaimed fund.

 

Haven't yet researched when the Mother (Lillian Carlisle) died but possible she had by 1926.

 

A bit more to go at tomorrow...

 

Alan.

[Mark1959]

When I worked for the MoD in 1980s we still used Vote Accounting. A Vote was like a General Ledger code. So, Alan, I suspect you are correct and that the money never got paid.

Edited 8 February , 2018 by Mark1959

[Alan24]

His Father Charles Alfred died 1910, his older brother Reginald Alfred died 1915 also aged 21, the sister Lavinia married in Burton in 1927 and the only candidate for a mother is Lilian H Carlisle who died in Sussex Q2 1948.

 

You can see how this poor chap got forgotten. 

 

Alan.

[Alan24]

After 18 months waiting, I have now had word that Douglas John Carlisle is now remembered by the CWGC.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/75464056/DOUGLAS JOHN CARLISLE/ 

We know where his burial is, so next step is to try and get him a CWGC headstone - his grave is not marked at present so hopefully not too much of a problem.

 

Due to previous lack of interest from CWGC in my other research projects, I decided to submit via. Terry at 'In From The Cold'. 

 

I therefore thank Terry for his assistance in this project. 

 

Alan.

Edited 6 August , 2020 by Alan24

[Matlock1418]

28 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

After 18 months waiting, I have now had word that Douglas James Carlisle is now remembered by the CWGC.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/75464056/DOUGLAS JOHN CARLISLE/ 

We know where his burial is, so next step is to try and get him a CWGC headstone - his grave is not marked at present so hopefully not too much of a problem.

 

Due to previous lack of interest from CWGC in my other research projects, I decided to submit via. Terry at 'In From The Cold'. 

 

I therefore thank Terry for his assistance in this project.

Well done Alan [and Terry & the IFCP team].

Thanks to the WFA & Fold3 there are two Pension card records under R33942

Dependant: Mrs Lily Carlisle, mother, 7/- pw from 23.10.18 awarded from 15.7.19

Her address: 2 De Beauvoir Crescent, Southgate Road, Hackney

:-) M

[Alan24]

28 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Well done Alan [and Terry & the IFCP team].

Thanks to the WFA & Fold3 there are two Pension card records under R33942

Dependant: Mrs Lily Carlisle, mother, 7/- pw from 23.10.18 awarded from 15.7.19

Her address: 2 De Beauvoir Crescent, Southgate Road, Hackney

:-) M

Thanks Matlock,

 

Strange there was a pension payment being made 2 days after he died, as there was a sum of money unclaimed in the Soldier's Effects -  see post #4.

 

Alan.