Just Captured Tommy

[Black Dudley]

Picked up this blank postcard recently, caption is "Captured Tomy" the young soldier is in a emotionally drained state and appears to be held just behind the lines possibly at a assembly point. Already his cap badge has gone and perhaps some insignia. He's wearing a cloth headwear visor cap and unusual trousers, which I think may indicate his trench has been overrun or perhaps he's been taken in a German night raid to be used as a "tongue". If members can see further details in the photo, I'd be pleased to hear them. Cheers

[Beechhill]

The "trousers" appear to be chaps of some kind, only reaching his thighs. He even looks like he's holding them, trying to keep them from dropping. 

/Dan 

Edited 6 February , 2018 by Beechhill

[2ndCMR]

Probably what has happened is a grenade or shell exploded in front of him and blew off his trouser legs and damaged the front of his tunic as well as his hand(s).   The facial injuries may have occurred at the same time and he may even have been found in an unconscious or barely conscious state.  Any explosion close enough to cause that kind of damage would leave most of us looking stunned.  He might even have been a raider who had removed his badges for that purpose and was injured and captured in the melée.

[Beechhill]

53 minutes ago, 2ndCMR said:

Probably what has happened is a grenade or shell exploded in front of him and blew off his trouser legs and damaged the front of his tunic as well as his hand(s).   The facial injuries may have occurred at the same time and he may even have been found in an unconscious or barely conscious state.  Any explosion close enough to cause that kind of damage would leave most of us looking stunned.  He might even have been a raider who had removed his badges for that purpose and was injured and captured in the melée.

Well done holding on to his hat! 

[Guest]

     Picture is an oddity. Nothing to suggest that the man is newly captured-though perhaps a few hours before. His left hand injury has been dressed. He has broken nose and eye injuries which have full bruising-and that takes a small while to come out He has no sign of running blood on his face and,more particularly, neck-perhaps dried? Perhaps already cleaned? As to trousers-the grenade story is unlikely. An oddity is that he is wearing chaps or waterproofs, though it appears to be a dry background. Also, they are tied at his upper leg on both legs -for a reason. But what?  If they were an emergency replacement for lost trews, then why the tie-up?  Also, his boots are fully laced, so the chaps going on was likely to be before the boots went on.

    The area does not seem to be front line. Perhaps a bit of light rail in the background?  Too much foliage for the front line,on balance.  As to insignia- no cap badge or shoulder badges- looks like a lance jack but the patterns on his left arm are more than  just that. The German guard does not appear to be frontline equipped-too much leather and no pickelhaube or steel, just cap. Unlikely anywhere near the front line. Yet the debris suggests somewhere close to the action.

 

      Perhaps the other way?  That the chaps and the boots are the real thing but the jacket may not be. A captured tunneller??

[AOK4]

I have the same picture/postcard. My card is written on 6 February 1918 by a man from Reserve Infanterie Regiment 76 and he writes "Dies Bild ist unser Kamerad und Tomi" (this picture shows our comrade and Tommy". 

This might indicate (never just believe what they have written on the back) that it would be a POW taken by the 17th Reserve Division. This unit was engaged in Flanders from late 1917 (near Gheluvelt and Polderhoek Chateau in December 1917, then resting in Courtrai in January 1918 and in line near Hollebeke from early February).

 

Is there anything on the back of your card?

 

Jan

[Wexflyer]

There are splints on both his legs. You can see them protrude out the bottom, next to his boots. You can also clearly see the splints extending up both legs.  The waterproofs are covering these. 

But this seems odd - if his legs are injured to the extent of requiring splints, then how is he standing on his own? 

I think it clear that he has been close to an explosion, as already argued earlier:

- Shocked expression.

- Injured eyes and nose,

- Injured left hand.

- Right hand?

- Lower front of jacket is shredded.

- Both legs injured?

 

Given the state of his jacket, and what appear to be the many holes in it, I wonder how he survived?

 

Edited 7 February , 2018 by Wexflyer

[Guest]

Splints with busted legs and standing unaided?  And fully laced-up boots?  If a grenade had shredded his trousers and bottom of tunic, I would expect more peppering wounds to his face.

[SiegeGunner]

Am I alone in getting the impression that the prisoner may have been superimposed on the background image?  His features seem much sharper than those of the German soldier and he conveniently does not overlap with the German at any point.  He somehow seems to stand out from the picture.

[TwoEssGee]

I'm just seeing a L/Cpl, wearing some sort of over trousers which he might even have made himself, as they are tied up with string. I think his choice of material might account for the apparently straight lines, rather than anything below them. Anytime I've donned over trousers, I always had my boots on and laced up in advance.

 

And as to how he came about his relatively minor injuries? Who knows, but having seen grenades exploding, I don't think he was anywhere near a grenade.

 

As far as his facial expression goes, he seems to be on the verge of a grin, maybe from relief of being captured in one piece some time earlier.

[Kath]

I copied the picture, put it on a Word doc. & viewed it at 500%.

There is a faint white outline around the TOMY.

Kath.

[AOK4]

Even though there is a faint outline around the soldier, I don't believe it is superimposed. The outline seems to be present around the German soldier as well, may have to do with the lighting.

[Beechhill]

6 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Even though there is a faint outline around the soldier, I don't believe it is superimposed. The outline seems to be present around the German soldier as well, may have to do with the lighting.

It is indeed due to the back light which creates a "halo". The same overexposure is present as an intense glare on the cloth hats. 

[kenf48]

I'm not sure if he made the over trousers himself, there are photographs of soldiers wearing similar over trousers usually with no apparent means of support (probably elastic) unlike trench waders which were held up with suspenders and covered the feet.  This style is usually seen with puttees and boots.  

 

I'd agree not a grenade more a simple smack in the face. As for the previously mentioned splint that's the bottom of his trouser leg hanging out the over trousers, as a result of not wearing the puttees.

 

The moment of capture was always the most dangerous and unpredictable.  After he passed into enemy hands he may have realised his chances of survival were enhanced if he was compliant and remained docile.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

  Had another look-  still pretty certain it was not a grenade that damaged him-force that could blow trousers off would do more damage above-including the Family Jewels.  His facial injuries are consistent with being whacked by a rifle butt.  As to the damage to his tunic and lack of British army service trousers, might I suggest this is more consistent with being tangled on barbed wire?  Is it possible that what appears to be a splint at the bottom of his left leg may be the remains of shredded trousers.

[2ndCMR]

On 2/6/2018 at 16:43, Beechhill said:

Well done holding on to his hat! 

 

How does one know it is "his" hat?  No shortage of British caps about the front lines for whom their previous owners would have no further use.  Perhaps it was "his", but was blown off and picked up?  Wonder of wonders.  All sorts of apparently very unlikely and odd things happened in the front lines now and then, as students of the literature will know.

 

Between the man's legs can be seen fragments of cloth hanging down.  What is projecting from the bottom of the improvised covering of his left leg is my opinion another fragment of his shredded trousers, folded as it is some might take it for something else.

 

His leg coverings do not match any known "waterproof" I have ever heard of, nor were such things usually secured with bits of string around the thighs.

 

What is around his legs may well be a couple of sandbags with their bottom seams unpicked and made into a kind of legging.  The Germans used all sorts of fabric for sandbags.  One account I read mentioned some apparently quite expensive Belgian fabrics that were confiscated and sewn into sandbags.

 

If he wasn't exposed to a blast in front, what would shred the front of his tunic like that?  Those garments were not lightly made.

 

Hopefully the poor b------ kept his most important kit intact despite the blast.

 

Edited 8 February , 2018 by 2ndCMR

[SiegeGunner]

Maybe the improvised leg coverings and shredded tunic  bottom are indicative of a job that involved kneeling on ground surfaces in varying states and working on something held in his lap that might damage the fabric ... like a telephone repair linesman or perhaps a member of a wiring party.  German night patrols often went well into the opposition side of no-man's land and would happily snatch an isolated member of a working party ... which may be why the prisoner is alone and showing signs of having been 'abducted' by force.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, SiegeGunner said:

Maybe the improvised leg coverings and shredded tunic  bottom are indicative of a job that involved kneeling on ground surfaces in varying states and working on something held in his lap that might damage the fabric ... like a telephone repair linesman or perhaps a member of a wiring party.  German night patrols often went well into the opposition side of no-man's land and would happily snatch an isolated member of a working party ... which may be why the prisoner is alone and showing signs of having been 'abducted' by force.

   Yes-this all makes complete sense. As a single soldier in the pic., he is likely to have been picked up as such-indicative of activity in NML.  BUT- one argument against that- those brass buttons on his tunic. If one is out in NML, was it usual to have brasses either present or not blacked out???  To avoid either sighting or noise?

[Buffnut453]

1 hour ago, voltaire60 said:

   Yes-this all makes complete sense. As a single soldier in the pic., he is likely to have been picked up as such-indicative of activity in NML.  BUT- one argument against that- those brass buttons on his tunic. If one is out in NML, was it usual to have brasses either present or not blacked out???  To avoid either sighting or noise?

 

Maybe that's why he was captured?

 

Ok...I'll get my coat!!!

[CountryJohn]

Shoot me down, but what is there to indicate this lance corporal is newly captured?

 

To me, the caption says English Prisoner of War "Tomy" - i.e. "Tomy" is his nickname  / 'pet' name and he has been allocated to the German unit on a regular enough basis (for labouring duties, etc) to be a known figure worth photographing and writing home about.

 

This would potentially explain the badge-less and well-worn cap, the almost-worn-out jacket, and the totally worn-out trousers replaced by makeshift leggings.  I don't know much about replacement of British uniform items for prisoners of war, but I imagine it was sporadic at best - there must have been a lot of prisoners who looked like this after a term of captivity.

 

I appreciate this does not explain his injuries, although there could be many reasons for those, and also that his boots don't look as badly worn as the rest of his uniform.

 

Any takers for this theory?

 

John

Edited 8 February , 2018 by CountryJohn
Added 'German' before 'unit' for clarity

[kenf48]

13 hours ago, 2ndCMR said:

 

 

 

His leg coverings do not match any known "waterproof" I have ever heard of, nor were such things usually secured with bits of string around the thighs.

 

 Going off topic but here you go, although Canadians on the Somme in 1916, from left to right

 

Wellington Boots; Boots and leggings tied with string (which presumably was an attempt to stop the trousers dragging in the mud, then trench waders.  

I guess they did what they could to keep dry.

[2ndCMR]

11 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 Going off topic but here you go, although Canadians on the Somme in 1916, from left to right

 

Wellington Boots; Boots and leggings tied with string (which presumably was an attempt to stop the trousers dragging in the mud, then trench waders.  

I guess they did what they could to keep dry.

What you're seeing there is regular army boots, Wellington boots and on the three fellows standing in the puddle "shoepacks", which were a (North American) thigh-length waterproof boot made of hide usually.  The fellow standing on the board in army boots does look like he has tied his pant legs up over his calves, perhaps to keep them from dragging and picking up mud excessively.  The fellows in the shoepacks plainly don't care where they are standing. Notice the shovel and probably a pick thrown down in the mud.  The soldier with his trousers tied up is perhaps about to step onto the pick head(?) the better to keep out of the mire.

Edited 9 February , 2018 by 2ndCMR

[Black Dudley]

Thanks everyone for their posts, generated more interest than I imagined. I'm not too well informed on allied equipment and uniforms, I've to ask, were these leggings shown in post 21 only issued to Canadian soldiers or a general issue piece ? when yes, stating the obvious - this would make him a Canadian soldier.

                Looking at the postcard, I can't help but wonder, if in fact its been used as a subtle propaganda card ! the subject is such a puny wee looking soldier, around 1,60 metre tall, weighs around 60 kilos, very small shoulders, a very diminutive statue, who has been crying his eyes out. A touch humiliated, such a card passed between soldiers and civil population would give the impression there's not too much to worry about when it comes to foreign armies ! as a occasional WW1 German postcard collector, I do come across propaganda postcards that can only have been produced to bolster public and military moral, usually showing dead allied soldiers lying on the battle field or newly capture P.O.W's. Thanks for the help. 

[2ndCMR]

I see no evidence the soldier was "crying his eyes out"; he probably had more guts than all of us in this thread combined.  And we all know or should, about the abysmal diets and overall health of the Victorian and Edwardian poor and their stunted growth and chronic diseases which rendered so many unfit for military service, a fact first noted officially during the 2nd Boer War.  Taken to a better climate and diet the same human stock became the tall and stocky Australian or New Zealander.  As for shoulders, Rommel was a meso-ectomorph; didn't seem to hurt his career!