Identifying RFC Casualties 6 March 1917

[MartinWills]

I recently came across a brief account of a British aircraft being shot down on 6 March 1917  by a German aircraft. The aircraft in question suffered broken wings and spiralled down. British troops on the ground reached the aircraft which I assume was a two seater as one man was shot through the head and another died in the crash. A second aircraft managed to get away and I do not know it's subsequent fate or whether it survived.

 

The incident happened somewhere near Ablain St Nazaire and took place "towards the evening" - though presumably in daylight.

 

Can anyone turn up more details and identify the aircraft, Squadron and the men involved?

[thetrenchrat22]

The RFC only received 13 casualties on this day, so it should be easy to track down 

 

do you have any other details 

[Phill Jones]

Martin ,

 

Not sure of the location with regard to yours , i have this one from The Sky Their Battlefield By Trevor Henshaw .

 

A2785, BE 2c  16 Sqd, Air Observation Patrol Vimy combat west of lines shot up Crashed /wrecked  2nd Lt GMG Bibby KIA /Lt GJO Brichta Can KIA, left 1-50 pm .

 

BE Claim combat nr Souchez 4PM Ltn M Fr V Richthofen Ja11  .

 

Not sure this is yours just a stab at it hope it proves fruitfull 

[MartinWills]

Phill,  thank you very much..

 

I was aware that there were 13 RFC men to choose from to choose from not to mention the possibility of an observer who might not have been RFC. Two RFC men  died in the UK, so that rules them out. I assume that the men were both from the same squadron, which rules out a couple more (unless there was a non-RFC observer??

 

I have spelt out everything that I know, but to summarise:

 

British Aircraft, spiralled down with broken wing(s) not too far from Ablain St Nazaire in late afternoon/early evening. Shot down by a german aircraft who also pursued another British Aircraft which appeared to escape.

 

Two men killed (so it was, I presume, a two seater ......). One shot in the head and the other killed upon crashing. Crash attended by British forces (so presumably the bodies were recovered).

 

This would seem to tie in to Bibby and Brichta both of whom are buried side by side in Barlin Communal Cemetery Extension. The time of day would tally as well. Equally near Ablain St Nazaire would tie in with a patrol around Vimy and a claim of "near Souchez".

 

There is a faint possibility that they may have been the two 57 Sqdn men killed that day: Lt Hills and 2/Lt Gardner in FE2d A1963 - but I don't have time or location for that one.

 

I think we can be fairly certain that Bibby and Brichta are the two men involved, but if anyone can add info with regard to Hills and Gardner so I can definitively rule them out, I would be very grateful.

 

[helpjpl]

Brought down in aerial combat on defensive patrol at Berneville, SW of Arras and 23km from Ablain-Saint-Nazaire:

A1963 FE2d - 57 Squadron

Lt. William Frederick Waller Hills. Pilot.

2/Lt. William Sutton Gardner. Observer.

 

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/rfc/files/names_combined_G-K.csv

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?war=1&servedIn=Air%2bforce&exactDate=06-03-1917&tab=wardead&fq_cemeterymemorial=AVESNES-LE-COMTE+COMMUNAL+CEMETERY+EXTENSION

 

page 150:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xS_AAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=W.F.W.+Hills,+RFC&source=bl&ots=08PneVCwMJ&sig=fRsMHuJLw0jIdD0qLprfHQ27vOo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOuZTemoDZAhWnDMAKHWMWBggQ6AEIQjAE#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

JP

Edited 30 January , 2018 by helpjpl

[PRC]

For what its worth, a thread on the Aerodrome Forum has the following:-

 

Dealing with 57 Sqn. A1963 first, my readings of this are as follows;
Firstly 57 Sqn. were involved in a large dog fight in the Mory / Ervillers area where Heinrich Gontermann claimed his 2nd victory over FE2b (A1948) in which 2nd Lt. Hill and 2Lt. Ryale were made PoW’s. His claim was at 12.15. They had left at 11.00. Even though the combat began in the Mory / Ervillers area which is north of Bapaume, the area where the aircraft fell is given as west of Bapaume and Adfiner Wood is mentioned, which is north of Douchy-les-Ayette. Mory to Adfiner woods as the crow flies is about 10k. Gontermann claimed a second Fe2b but this was not awarded.

57 Sqn. Lost a further two aircraft one of which were credited to Ltn. Schulte of Jasta 12, A1953, Capt. W.S.R. Bloomfield and 2Lt. V.O. Lonsdale, both of whom were taken PoW. They had also left at 11.00. Again the area where the aircraft fell is given as Adfiner Woods. The time given is 12.20.

The third aircraft that 57 Sqn lost, A1963 Lt. W.F.H. Hills KiA and 2Lt W. Sutton-Gardner KiA also left at 11.00. This was awarded to Oblt. H.Kummetz and I have it in the Berneville area at 12.35. It looks like the combat began in the Mory / Ervillers area which is south of Arras and above Bapaume. It seems to have drifted west of Bapaume and then north towards Berneville where the final 57 Sqn. aircraft went down.

Again before 13.00 57 Sqn were involved in a further large scale combat in the area of Gueudecourt which is just south of Bapaume. It was here that Offstv Edmund Nathanae Ja5 claimed a Morane Parasol, A268 from 3 Sqn. at 12.45 and Vzfw Bussing and Vzfw Dahlmann each claimed a FE2b. Only Dahlmanns claim was confirmed but there does not seem to be any corresponding loss at this time to match in with the claim. At this stage A1963 Lt. W.F.H. Hills KiA and 2Lt W. Sutton-Gardner KiA were already down.
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53327&page=11

 

Seems to be well researched but I'll leave it to others to decide how much credence to give it.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[MartinWills]

JP and PRC,  Thanks for the extra info. This clearly indicates that the incident with Hills and GArdner would not have been observed with the naked eye from "near Ablain St Nazaire) and the timing of around 1230/1300 does not tie in with late afternoon/early evening timing, so I think I can be pretty sure that the men I am looking for are Bibby and Brichta.

 

Thank you everyone for all you help.

[hmsk212]

According to "Under the guns of the Red Baron " by Franks, Giblin & McCrery, the other aircraft that was attacked that day but managed to get away was BE2d 5834 of 16 Squadron piloted by Flt Sgt S H Quicke with Capt L E Claremant as observer. They were attacked by Manfred Von Richthofen and Karl Allmenroder . They were hit in the upper left aileron and had an outer strut damaged but managed to land safely near Camblain L'Abbee. Sadly, on 21st March 1917, Flight Sgt Quicke was again attacked by the Red Baron but this time both he and his observer, 2 Lt W J Lidsey were killed.

[MartinWills]

Thanks again to everyone it really fills in the picture and story around a very brief account.

[PRC]

Gerald Maurice Gossett Bibby was ex-Oundle Public School. The school's online Roll of Honour has a picture of him.

http://www.oundleschool.org.uk/Gerald-Maurice-Gosset-Bibby-6-March-1917?returnUrl=/World-War-I

 

Geoffrey Joseph Ogilvie Brichta, born Vienna, Austria (of British Parents) and ex 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles Battalion, attached R.F.C. has Service Records that can be viewed at the Canadian National Archive here:-

http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=63388

As well as serving with the Canadian Militia at the time of applying to be an officer in the Canadian Expeditionary Force, he had also seen service with the 4th battalion Manchester Regiment.

 

Pictures of the pair of them turn up on this blog-post.

https://airwar19141918.wordpress.com/tag/40-squadron-rfc/

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Loader]

Sounds as if they came down inside the British lines. Does this narrow down who it might have been?

[MartinWills]

Peter,  Thanks for the extra links and info. Interesting to note that Bibby would have been a virtual contemporary of Cecil Lewis at Oundle. Lewis had a distinguished career among other things joining the BBC management when it was formed in 1922 where the chief engineer was Peter Eckersley who served with my grandfather at Biggin Hill in 1918 working on grond/air radio telephony.. Lewis is probably best known to WW1 aficionados as the author of that wonderful memoir "Sagittarius Rising".