PeteS Posted 29 January , 2018 Share Posted 29 January , 2018 (edited) I have seen and read various differing definitions of a "typical" British infantry platoon during the summer of 1916 on the Somme. Would I be far off the mark if I noted - 1 officer (Lieut or Second Lieut) 1 Sergeant Platoon split onto 4 sections each led by a Corpl (and possibly a Lance Corpl) and each consisting of 9 or 10 riflemen - some being qualified as Bombers and some with Rifle grenades. With the Platoon Lewis gun team integral to one of the sections. Likely with a Drummer and an officer's batman located beside the officer/sergeant. With a probable total of approx. 50 chaps ? thanks for knowledgeable advice. Pete Edited 29 January , 2018 by PeteS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteS Posted 31 January , 2018 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2018 nobody ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev2386 Posted 31 January , 2018 Share Posted 31 January , 2018 I’ve noted that there were four platoons per company, led by a lieutenant or 2nd lieutenant. The four platoons comprising of eight sergeants, 10 corporals, four drummers, four batmen and 188 privates. The platoon would then subdivide into its smallest part, the section, of 12 men led by a NCO. Hope this helps, Trev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 31 January , 2018 Share Posted 31 January , 2018 On 29/01/2018 at 15:23, PeteS said: I have seen and read various differing definitions of a "typical" British infantry platoon during the summer of 1916 on the Somme. Would I be far off the mark if I noted - 1 officer (Lieut or Second Lieut) 1 Sergeant Platoon split onto 4 sections each led by a Corpl (and possibly a Lance Corpl) and each consisting of 9 or 10 riflemen - some being qualified as Bombers and some with Rifle grenades. With the Platoon Lewis gun team integral to one of the sections. Likely with a Drummer and an officer's batman located beside the officer/sergeant. With a probable total of approx. 50 chaps ? thanks for knowledgeable advice. Pete Hi For 1916 it might depend on exactly when, as the equipment you mention was being introduced and integrated into the platoon. By March 1917 the make up was: Platoon HQ - 1 Officer, 1 NCO (platoon Sergeant), 1 OR (batman or runner). No. 1 Section (bombers) - 1 NCO, 9 OR. No. 2 Section (riflemen) - 1 NCO, 12 OR. No. 3 Section (rifle grenade) - 1 NCO, 9 OR. No. 4 Section (Lewis Gun) - 1 NCO, 6 OR. Total - 1 Officer, 5 NCO, 37 OR. Sorry it is not exactly what you wanted. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 31 January , 2018 Share Posted 31 January , 2018 Hello Pete The 1917 reorganisation to which Mike refers suggested an average total of 44 men in the platoon: an officer and three ORs as HQ and four platoons of an NCO and nine men each. (The Lewis Gun section had two guns.) It was acknowledged that few platoons would be at full strength unless the battalion had recently received a reinforcement draft, but otherwise I don't think that your estimate of 50 all ranks is far off the mark, though if anything it is slightly on the high side. Men were also required, from the strength of companies and platoons, for various jobs at company and battalion HQs, there being no specific "HQ Company" in those days. In over fifty years of research I have yet to find a definitive official statement of how a platoon was expected to be constituted in action. The various War Establishments published over the period do not drill down below company level. This book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Infantry-1660-1945-Evolution-Fighting/dp/0713713925/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1517418765&sr=1-3&keywords="the+british+infantry" gives a detailed breakdown following the 1917 changes, but even its figures are flexible. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesmessenger Posted 31 January , 2018 Share Posted 31 January , 2018 Ron For anyone interested in the history of British infantry, Myatt's book is a valuable addition to the bookshelf. Charles M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 31 January , 2018 Share Posted 31 January , 2018 I couldn't agree more! It's been on my shelves for many years. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteS Posted 1 February , 2018 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2018 Thank you very much Gents, I shall go and source a copy of MYATT. thanks Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 2 February , 2018 Share Posted 2 February , 2018 On 01/02/2018 at 13:46, PeteS said: Thank you very much Gents, I shall go and source a copy of MYATT. thanks Pete Hi SS 143 'Instructions for the Training of Platoons for Offensive Action, 1917', page 6, of February 1917, states that the platoon: "...has a minimum strength, exclusive of its Headquarters, of 28 OR and a maximum of 44 OR." It then suggests that "...a suitable organisation would be as follows..." then giving the following: Headquarters - 1 Officer and 4 OR = 4 1 Section Bombers - 1 NCO and 8 OR (includes 2 bayonet men and 2 throwers). = 9 1 Section Lewis Gunners - 1 NCO and 8 OR (Includes Nos. 1 and 2) = 9 (this is one Lewis gun). 1 Section Riflemen - 1 NCO and 8 OR (picked shots, scouts, picked bayonet fighters) = 9 1 Section Rifle Bombers - 1 NCO and 8 OR (includes 4 bomb firers) = 9 As this is called a 'suitable organisation' then it appears there was scope for different types of organisation for the platoon, so one can expect variations during 1916 as well. Note there is no mention of the platoon sergeant, however he appears in all the diagrams of methods of attack in the second line with the platoon HQ. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteS Posted 2 February , 2018 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2018 4 hours ago, MikeMeech said: Hi SS 143 'Instructions for the Training of Platoons for Offensive Action, 1917', page 6, of February 1917, states that the platoon: "...has a minimum strength, exclusive of its Headquarters, of 28 OR and a maximum of 44 OR." It then suggests that "...a suitable organisation would be as follows..." then giving the following: Headquarters - 1 Officer and 4 OR = 4 1 Section Bombers - 1 NCO and 8 OR (includes 2 bayonet men and 2 throwers). = 9 1 Section Lewis Gunners - 1 NCO and 8 OR (Includes Nos. 1 and 2) = 9 (this is one Lewis gun). 1 Section Riflemen - 1 NCO and 8 OR (picked shots, scouts, picked bayonet fighters) = 9 1 Section Rifle Bombers - 1 NCO and 8 OR (includes 4 bomb firers) = 9 As this is called a 'suitable organisation' then it appears there was scope for different types of organisation for the platoon, so one can expect variations during 1916 as well. Note there is no mention of the platoon sergeant, however he appears in all the diagrams of methods of attack in the second line with the platoon HQ. Mike Do you reckon that would be a Corporal Acting Sergt ? (maybe one of those Acting Unpaid) ? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 2 February , 2018 Share Posted 2 February , 2018 It could be argued whether it has to be an officer in command of a 'typical' platoon. With a portion of personnel in the battle reserve, casualties etc it is not a given that a platoon would be led into action by a subaltern. Even on the first day of the Battle of the Somme when units should have been at full strength some companies had only 50% of officer platoon commanders. E.g. Nevill's B Company 8th E Surreys was only authorised to have four officers go over the top (including OC and 2IC). Plenty of sergeants led platoons with dash and elan from the start of a battle or having taken over from a wounded/killed officer. However, the image of young experienced second lieutenants straight out of school is pervasive. Numbers in a platoon could vary wildly; an officer of 46th Division going over at Gommecourt seemed perturbed that he only had fifteen men in his platoon due to having lost various specialists and men on carrying parties and a few men wounded on a working party the day before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 2 February , 2018 Share Posted 2 February , 2018 1 hour ago, PeteS said: Do you reckon that would be a Corporal Acting Sergt ? (maybe one of those Acting Unpaid) ? Pete The platoon sergeant would only be a corporal if there were no sergeants available in the platoon, as he was the effective 2i/c of the platoon. He mght be a lance-sergeant, but I don't think that there was provision for such rank to be unpaid - that only applied to lance-corporals in excess of the authorised establishment. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wexflyer Posted 2 February , 2018 Share Posted 2 February , 2018 2 hours ago, Colin W Taylor said: It could be argued whether it has to be an officer in command of a 'typical' platoon. With a portion of personnel in the battle reserve, casualties etc it is not a given that a platoon would However, the image of young experienced second lieutenants straight out of school is pervasive. Don't you mean inexperienced? 6 hours ago, MikeMeech said: Headquarters - 1 Officer and 4 OR = 4 Should this be 5, or 3 OR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 3 February , 2018 Share Posted 3 February , 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Chris Henschke said: Regarding the original question and Lewis Guns, I doubt that in the summer of 1916 any battalion in the B.E.F. had Lewis Guns integral with platoons. If the A.I.F. experience regarding establishments of Lewis Guns in 1916 was much different to the rest of the B.E.F., I have not seen any evidence to show for it. In 1st Anzac Corps, the establishment of Lewis Guns was 8 per battalion in July 1916. It was only increased to 10 or 12 per battalion at the end of that year. The company detachments were under the command of the company commander, but the Battalion Lewis Gun Officer was responsible for the inspection and general supervision of all the guns in the battalion and for the training of personnel. The doctrine at that time was of Lewis Gun detachments, four detachments (one to each company, making a total of eight guns) and in theory, if the ideal of 12 guns were on hand, two detachments (four guns) allotted to Battalion Headquarters. Australian battalions were allocated 14 guns per battalion in mid-February 1917. It was only in late February/March 1917 that the Lewis Gun Section was formed as a section in platoons. (When the establishment was altered to 16 Lewis Guns.) Re post No. 5, the concept of having two guns in a Lewis Section only became common after June 1918, when 36 guns in total were allotted to battalions (an increase in establishment had been promulgated allowing four guns for AA purposes). The same could be said of bomber sections in a platoon. Practice varied, but specialist bomber sections were under company command and not commonly part of a platoon until February/March 1917. In the middle of 1916, A.I.F battalions had a bombing platoon (four squads), sometimes referred to as the Battalion Bombing Platoon. In some cases, a specialist bombing squad was formed within a company or platoon. The doctrine for bombers (in the time period relevant to the original post) was S.S. 398, The Training and Employment of Bombers, issued in March 1916. Some extracts : "There should be, therefore, in every platoon at least one N.C.O. and eight men with a higher degree of efficiency and training than the remainder. These men are available either to work with the platoon or to provide a reserve of bombers for any special object. Some battalions have in addition a platoon of battalion bombers, trained and administered as a separate unit of the battalion organisation." "Four squads of eight men each under the battalion bombing officer (assisted by a senior N.C.O.) will be found a convenient strength for a battalion bombing platoon. This may be administered as a separate unit under the battalion bombing officer, and given a special post and definite duties in case of attack, when the battalion is in the trenches ; or the men may remain normally with their companies and only be brought together for a special purpose." Chris Henschke Edited 3 February , 2018 by Chris Henschke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawryleslie Posted 3 February , 2018 Share Posted 3 February , 2018 RND Battalions consisted of 4 Companies, ABC&D. Each company consisted of 4 Platoons of 90 men with a Lt or Sub/Lt in command a CPO or P.O. as 2 I/c. There were several Leading Seamen (equivalent to corporal) so assume that they acted as section commanders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeech Posted 3 February , 2018 Share Posted 3 February , 2018 11 hours ago, Wexflyer said: Don't you mean inexperienced? Should this be 5, or 3 OR? Hi I should have said that SS143 Page 6 only counts 'Total OR' (including NCOs) in the manpower totals. Also why the platoon sergeant is missed out in this list when he appears throughout the rest of the document I don't know. It should be remembered that SS143 was produced to spread 'best practice' around the BEF from the 'lessons learned' during 1916 by the British and French, plus the introduction that year of 'new' weapons into the platoon organisation. Brigadier-General Solly-Flood was heavily involved in the work that led to this document, part of his work included visiting the French at Chalons in late November (he was part of a group of British officers, other groups followed as part of a GHQ program). Tactics that appear in this document were used before it was published (as was normal) eg. by 29th Division in an operation on 27 January, 1917. The 7th Norfolks were involved in developing these tactics according to Peter Simkins on page 47 of 'From the Somme to Victory'. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 3 February , 2018 Share Posted 3 February , 2018 19 hours ago, Wexflyer said: Don't you mean inexperienced? Wex, Agreed, mea culpa. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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