Stolen Medal Group Appearing for Sale - King's Liverpool

[Ian Riley]

Can anyone give me any advice, please, regarding claims against vendors on stolen medals .

 

Our tiny museum trust (you can probably guess from looking at my interests) has last summer corresponded with the grandson of a man who was wounded and discharged in 1915 following the loss of a leg near Ypres. We were able to help him with his research (down to the trench where he was wounded). He mentioned that the medals had been stolen from his parents' house about 30 years ago.  This morning the trio has turned up for sale on a very popular internet auction site . I have read the auction site policy that involves contacting the police for them to contact the auction site (no hope really when it can take several days to get a response to a 999 call and the first thing that will be requested is probably a thirty year old crime number). However it appears that in the meantime the group came up for sale via Dix Noonan Webb in September 2004 (and probably came from the very distinguished collection of a friend who would be mortified if he were still with us). How does this affect any claim the family might have? I gather that the law on market ouvert has been changed/abolished. I am not suggesting that the current vendor holds these medals in anything other than good faith. 

 

I have corresponded with the current vendor on behalf of the grandson (who does not 'do' internet auctions) to ask if in the circumstances he was prepared to withdraw and agree a private sale at a possible premium but his/her response was that 'the family had the chance to claim them when they came up for auction in 2004'. 

 

Does the family have any claim?

 

Ian

Edited 29 January , 2018 by Ian Riley

[chaz]

the reply could be that in 2004 they might not have known how to or where to look that todays age would know where to look. todays search engines can pull up many old catalogues , why the sudden interest that found them, have they been looking solidly for the last 30 years.

there have been postings on the BMF of people wanting their medals back after 20 or 30 years. they sold them to raise funds for current needs, now they realise value (or need more money) they are seeking them again.

brings up the old nutshell, bought from  a friend of a friend....who is ultimately responsible. posession or handling how to prove, the only thing you have now is knowing where they currently are, did/does DNW have a stolen goods policy? presumably they would say its the 'sellers' job to prove they own the item legitamately, do they actually 'handle' the item or just list?? 

[TEW]

How much were/are the medals up for? Maybe just forget about the 'stolen' aspect and buy them. Between my Uncle and myself we've bought back my Grandfather's pair and MC with bar which were stolen circa 1995. MC turned up on the same 'very popular internet auction site' in 2005 and I discovered the pair had been sold through a reputable auction house circa 2012. No crime number for these so just had to plea with the vendor to de-list the item and let us have it for its highest bid at the time. The auction house passed on my request to the purchaser of the pair who let me have them for his costs.

MC & Bar cost us £650, Pair cost about £300 including all the 'research' by the purchaser which included my own photos of my Grandfather from photobucket! So, that's £900 to re-coup the MC/bar & Pair. But wouldn't have done anything else!

TEW

[Grovetown]

If they were demonstrably stolen, then no-one can acquire good title to them (except in weird, old circumstances like marché overt).

 

You can't buy something from someone who doesn't own it; and you can't sell what you don't own.

 

The title of the medals remains with the original owner.

 

Yet: it would need proving they were stolen - crime number, insurance claim etc, simply because it is easy for a disgruntled or acquisitive family member to claim that regardless, years down the line.

 

Especially if/ when ownership was disputed within the family itself ("they were promised to me, not you" and all that - not an infrequent occurrence).

 

As TEW says: if possible, just buy' em.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

Edited 29 January , 2018 by Grovetown

[Guest]

  Market overt is no longer a practical defence.

 

     General rule is that no matter how many hands the items have passed through, then the original owner has the claim. The legal rule is that you cannot give better title than you have. Thus, a buyer may squawk that they bought "in good faith"- but if their source had no title, then no title can be transferred or created. "Good faith" is usually a defence against prosecution for having stolen goods-though it is remarkable how many people who "look the other" way when goods come up that might reasonably be presumed to be dodgy  and somehow expect the original owner to reimburse them if reclaimed. Here, the rule is that you recover your money from whoever you purchased from-and they in turn back down the line.

    Frequently happens today with cars that are stolen or have OS HP on them- car goes back to the original owner, disregarding everyone in between.

 

     The big problem is to show they were stolen-  if your local police are the same as the Met. , then anything over 10 years is a no-hope (even then, the Met. archives early on and access to old records is nigh on impossible). Any contemporary newspaper reports?????

 

     DNW is reputable- what do they have to say- this is a fairly common problem.

[Coldstreamer]

if on ebay,you could tell them they are stolen property

 

personally Id buy them and worry about the rest later when I had them

Edited 29 January , 2018 by Coldstreamer

[Kath]

3 hours ago, Ian Riley said:

medals had been stolen from his parents' house about 30 years ago.

Anything in the local papers?

Kath.

[Radlad]

First thing is to find out any proof that they were actually stolen. As others say, they may have actually been lost, sold or disposed of in other ways.

To report something as stolen, 30 years after they went missing may well be a false allegation.

 

as an example, my Grandfathers MM, pip, squeak and Wilfred

Uncle no. 2 said they were donated to a museum

Uncle no. 3 said he's never ever seen them

uncle no. 4 said his mother (my Grandmother) Probably sold them

My Mother (the eldest born 1919) said her mother pawned them . She remembers the family row it caused when she was 11 or 12 years old

 

So, My grandfathers medals are missing. I believe them to have been stolen. If anyone has the medals of 53336 Bmb. F Murray RGA, would they please return them to me, preferably free gratis.  Thankyou

[stiletto_33853]

Can this man prove they were stolen?? or did one branch of the family just sell them on at a later date (very common).

 

If there is no proof of theft then they are in the marketplace, end of story. Most dealers/collectors are pretty honest.

 

I brought some medals years back to a very very well known gentlemen in the Regiment. I knew that they were part of a collection to someone also well known, ex officer in the Regiment, who had been burgled. Fortunately the collector had a list who he forwarded to various auction houses although the burglary was a good few years previous. I checked the list, found they were on the list of burgled medals and returned them to the dealer, very well known dealer. The dealer was horrified, refunded my money and conducted a thorough background check of where the medals came from. End result, they had come from a Canadian collector, original theft was proved and the Police were involved.

 

My advice, bid on them or try to make a deal through the auction house.

 

Andy

Edited 30 January , 2018 by stiletto_33853

[Ian Riley]

Dear Everyone,

 

Thanks for these responses which confirm my initial feelings. 

 

My own immediate response was to bid, deal or be damned and this is appears to be the way this is going and the response of almost all of you. .

 

I am only too aware the problems caused by one sibling selling without speaking to the other or the one who has the medals and is not letting the others even see them. One case I met last year cost one branch of a family nearly £5000 to resolve. In the present case, the family member is actually the only grandchild, son of the only child of the soldier in question.  

 

There seems little point in trying to establish a 'stolen' claim when the events were 30 years ago from parents now dead and where the relevant paperwork (crime numbers, insurance claims etc) have almost certainly been disposed off. We don't want people (dealer or collector who, as Stiletto mentions, are generally a pretty honest and decent lot)who have bought these medals in good faith to be penalised  and they have probably  passed through the distinguished hands of a late friend and thence to the worthy DNW. 

 

I was interested in the principle that no-one can sell a better title than they have - I have spent much of my life trying to persuade students that you can't get more accuracy out of a problem  than was in the data you put in!

 

The eBay procedure seems to be almost useless given the time scales - I can't see Fabian of the Yard whipping through the streets of wherever this internet auction is based , bells on the front of his Humber Hawk ringing stridently (do I remember rightly?) to arrive before 'Auction ends'. 

 

Thanks again.

 

Ian

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Ian Riley said:

I was interested in the principle that no-one can sell a better title than they have - I have spent much of my life trying to persuade students that you can't get more accuracy out of a problem  than was in the data you put in!

 

   Ian- Shame on you-  As a former teacher I can tell you that the answer to the problem of persuading students to invest some time in work was solved perfectly by one of the greatest men of your local area- the late,great Bill Shankly:

 

     "The only place success comes before work is in the English dictionary"

[Ian Riley]

 

   Ian- Shame on you-  As a former teacher I can tell you that the answer to the problem of persuading students to invest some time in work was solved perfectly by one of the greatest men of your local area- the late,great Bill Shankly:

 

     "The only place success comes before work is in the English dictionary"

Sadly, and I hope no-one misinterprets this, Bill Shankly batted for the wrong (Merseyside) team. 

 

What I had in mind was not measures of effort but the keen ones who given data to three significant figures, then insist on providing answers to about seven figures

[Guest]

On 29/01/2018 at 22:28, Ian Riley said:

Sadly, and I hope no-one misinterprets this, Bill Shankly batted for the wrong (Merseyside) team. 

 

     I thought that might be the case.................   so we can both rest on the great man's  classic remark-"There are only 2 good teams on Merseyside...Liverpool and...............

[Don Regiano]

Careful Mike, you may be upsetting a few Evertonians who belong to this forum (well, 3 maybe).  Just wait until Fatty Owls sees this!!!!

 

Reg

[Fattyowls]

9 minutes ago, Don Regiano said:

Careful Mike, you may be upsetting a few Evertonians who belong to this forum (well, 3 maybe).  Just wait until Fatty Owls sees this!!!!

 

Reg

 

Seen it, remained chilled; long experience of supporting our boys has put iron in my soul so it made no impact. Funnily enough I have developed a grudging fondness for Bill over the years. His description of William Ralph Dean is unsurprisingly my favourite quote of his, and he had a set of values that are rarely found in the game these days. And he spent a fair chunk of his last days watching training at Everton's training ground, as he couldn't let go of football and would made things difficult for Bob Paisley over at Melwood.

 

Just to say that this is a very informative thread; as I'm not a collector I can't imagine it being relevant but you never know. My grandad's BWM is out there somewhere.....

 

Pete.

[Guest]

   Pete-  No intention to enter the lists in the Everton/Liverpool "debate". Bill Shankly is the one man I wish were still alive to give a view on certain of today's problems- and personalities.  God bless his memory.

[MBrockway]

 

   Ian- Shame on you-  As a former teacher I can tell you that the answer to the problem of persuading students to invest some time in work was solved perfectly by one of the greatest men of your local area- the late,great Bill Shankly:

 

     "The only place success comes before work is in the English dictionary"

While his main fame was from the marvels he worked down here in Merseyside, Bill Shankly was, of course, a man of Glenbuck, Ayrshire, a tiny mining village high up on the South Ayrshire moors and home to the famous Glenbuck Cherrypickers FC.  Bill didn't ever turn out for the Cherrypickers - they shut down before he was old enough - but his four elder brothers did, as also did my great-grandfather!

 

The other side of the family - lace-makers in Newmilns, Ayrshire - were also very active in amateur football and were important in establishing the game in Barcelona in parallel with developing links with the local lace industry there.

 

Ayrshire was football mad in the first half of the last century!

 

Mark

 

[Ian Riley]

To all who contributed here (Liverpool and Everton supporters alike and t'Others),

 

Thanks very much for your advice. There has been an entirely successful outcome with the sole grandchild of the veteran about to receive his medals following agreeing a very fair price with a vendor who said that his preference was for them to be reunited with the family  and we acknowledge that they may have got more if they had gone to auction - there again, of course they may not but any uncertainty is removed. I am personally satisfied that they were stolen in the first place (30 years ago) but who in the tangled web of human life can ever be sure! There again, I am absolutely certain that the last couple of owners have held them in totally good faith. I was interested that the vendor went to some lengths to establish that I was who I said I was. I don't blame him at all (he has acted very fairly throughout)  but rather a sad comment on the way of the world.

 

That's two groups I have managed to match up to families  in the last two months. I don't want to make a habit of this - the stress is too much. 

 

Thanks again, good people.

 

Ian

Edited 1 February , 2018 by Ian Riley

[Guest]

Ian-      while there are all sorts  of cautions against naming someone who may not have been that honest, your chap is obviously an honest man and deserving of recognition-if only that GWF types who may have dealings with medals in the future may know of someone who is a "right 'un" not a "wrong 'un"    We should always be willing to name the decent and the good- hearted, the more so in the generally miserable world we live in.

[Fattyowls]

Ian, to use football parlance: result!

 

Pete.

[stiletto_33853]

Great result Ian.

 

Andy

[Kitchener's Bugle]

A couple of years back the Police contacted me via e-mail, which they had obtained from a famous online auction site. I had bought a single campaign medal (in good faith) a couple of years earlier to an MM Winner that had been stolen some years before. The family member who now actually lived in Australia had contacted the Police. In short the Police were very nice about this and I agreed to send the medal to Australia and the family member paid me what I paid at auction for it. All ended well and everyone was happy.

[4thGordons]

What a truly excellent thread. Many of the things that make the forum great displayed here....And Shankly to boot.

Excellent result.

Almost makes up for yesterdays refereeing/linesman "decisions"

YNWA

Chris

[depaor01]

I thought I'd accidentally entered the football thread.

[MBrockway]

13 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

What a truly excellent thread. Many of the things that make the forum great displayed here....And Shankly to boot.

Excellent result.

Almost makes up for yesterdays refereeing/linesman "decisions"

YNWA

Chris

 

Was chatting to some LFC fans at a wake in Liverpool last week and was very pleasantly surprised to discover they had heard of the Glenbuck Cherrypickers .

 

As well as the Shankly connection, apparently Alex Ferguson uses them as an example of team motivation - a tiny close-knit village all playing for each other, not themselves, and in so doing achieving great things.