7263 Pte. Percy E. Northcote, 1/Lincs

[verdun]

Back in November, I started a thread about Percy Northcote, whose 1914 Star had been found during a house clearance. The man has two MICs, which say that he was a deserter and later served under a different name. Members of the GWF responded with helpful information. This included surviving documents that show he enlisted in the Middlesex militia in 1903 and transferred to the Norfolk Regiment the following year, 5th October 1904. The issuing of his Norfolk Regt. number (7263) seemed to fit perfectly with this date,  as indicated in Paul Nixon's excellent Army Service Numbers guide.

 

I therefore assumed that, because this number was allocated to the regular army Norfolk battalions, Percy Northcote must have moved into full-time military service from this point onwards... (His 1914 Star also bears the number 7263.)

 

However, he appears in the 1911 Census, not as a soldier, but as a "Porter Civil Service". Moreover, British Postal Service Appointment Books, 1737-1969 show that in 1913 he was, indeed, employed as a porter. My question is, how could he have a regular army service number, but not be a regular?

 

Also, directly above his name in the Postal Service Appointment book is the name Henry J. Northcott - which is exactly the same name as that which appears on his second MIC!!!

 

Can anyone help unravel this mystery. The more I investigate this man, the more complicated the story becomes!

 

Many thanks to all budding sleuths!

[ss002d6252]

He would have enlisted as a regular for a 12 year enlistment in total but part of this period was spent as a reservist. Not got my records to hand but 1904 would usually be either 3&9yrs or 7&5yrs, the first part of each period was full time and the second part as a reservist. By 1911 he would be in the army reserve and working in civilian employment.

 

Craig

[verdun]

Thanks Craig. His MIC shows that he went to France with the 1st Battalion on 13th August 1914 - so this means he must have been recalled immediately war had been declared on 4th August. If so, he would have had virtually no time to return to the fitness/training/musketry levels required for active service.

 

Was it the norm that battalions went to France in 1914 with recalled reservists, or was it simply in cases where they were needed to bring them up to full strength?

[ss002d6252]

2 hours ago, verdun said:

Thanks Craig. His MIC shows that he went to France with the 1st Battalion on 13th August 1914 - so this means he must have been recalled immediately war had been declared on 4th August. If so, he would have had virtually no time to return to the fitness/training/musketry levels required for active service.

 

Was it the norm that battalions went to France in 1914 with recalled reservists, or was it simply in cases where they were needed to bring them up to full strength?

The reservists were immediately needed in many cases to being the battalions up to full war time strength.

 

It's not unusual to see reservists straight back in and off to France within days (you even see some cases of new recruits being enlisted and sent to France within days in 1914).

 

Craig

[verdun]

" You even see some cases of new recruits being enlisted and sent to France within days in 1914."

 

Yes - I should have realised this... I had a great uncle whose Army Service Record has survived. This shows that he attested on 9th December 1914. His MIC then shows that he was sent to France just one week later, on 16th December, in the Army Veterinary Corps. (He was later transferred to the RFA.)

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, verdun said:

" You even see some cases of new recruits being enlisted and sent to France within days in 1914."

 

Yes - I should have realised this... I had a great uncle whose Army Service Record has survived. This shows that he attested on 9th December 1914. His MIC then shows that he was sent to France just one week later, on 16th December, in the Army Veterinary Corps. (He was later transferred to the RFA.)

Men who were specialists were shipped out quick as they didn't need the military training, that was regarded as secondary (this was still happening later in the war with tunnellers). What was a surprise when it was being looked in to a few years ago (there was a long thread on the issue) was the number of infantry being sent with no apparent experience, I'm not sure how that was expected to work...

Craig

[verdun]

Cannon fodder!

[Stebie9173]

7261 Hugh MacPherson joined the Regular Lincolnshire Regiment from the Militia on 5 October 1904 on Terms of 3 years active service and 9 years on Reserve.

7266 Herbert Ernest Faulkner joined the Regular Lincolnshire Regiment from the Militia on 11 October 1904 on Terms of 3 years active service and 9 years on Reserve.

 

Most men on 3/9 Terms of Enlistment would serve only in the UK, with Terms being extended to 7/5 if they went on to serve overseas.

 

 

Steve.

[rob carman]

7 hours ago, verdun said:

His MIC shows that he went to France with the 1st Battalion on 13th August 1914

 

By midnight 6 August, 3 (Special Reserve) Bn in had shipped  600 (of the 800 reservists assembled in the Norwich Depot) in two large drafts to 1 Bn in Belfast. 

 

Rob. 

[verdun]

That's really helpful. Many thanks, indeed, Steve & Rob! Much appreciated!

 

Now What I need is someone to help unravel the desertion story and the assumed name (Northcott) on his second MIC

Edited 28 January , 2018 by verdun
to include extra thanks to another member

[ss002d6252]

55 minutes ago, verdun said:

That's really helpful. Many thanks, indeed, Steve & Rob! Much appreciated!

 

Now What I need is someone to help unravel the desertion story and the assumed name (Northcott) on his second MIC

He must have absconded more than once. This appears in a paper of Sep 15.

The medal rolls show that he was declared a deserter on 12 Oct 1915.
 

Craig

Edited 28 January , 2018 by ss002d6252

[ss002d6252]

Looks to me like he managed to slip away soon after he was caught.
 

His second period of service was with the RGA as #6906 and #296110.These numbers, from the medal roll, lies with a group allocated to 152 Hvy Battery RGA.
 

#6907 / #296111 was allocated to a man who enlisted 18/10/15 at Finsbury Barracks and who joined up with the battery 21/10/15 at Hackney.

Craig

Edited 28 January , 2018 by ss002d6252

[verdun]

Again - many thanks, Craig. Your information indicates that he re-enlisted (18/10/15) soon after he was declared a deserter (12/10/15).

 

Several questions arise:

1. What was he doing back in the UK that enabled him to desert in the first place - leave, or recovering from wounds?

2. Why re-enlist, if you had just deserted?

3. How did the Army realise that Percy Northcote & Henry Northcott (as shown on the two MICs) were the same man?

4. Was there any court-martial/punishment?

5. Why did Capt. Clifford Erskine-Bolst, M.P. get involved? Was it simply to ensure the Percy Northcote got his 1914 Star, to which he was clearly entitled, regardless of his later desertion?

6. Were the BWM and VM withheld?

 

Any/all ideas welcome!

 

 

[ss002d6252]

1) The article states he had 'lost' his rail ticket - probably the rail travel warrant they gave the soldiers to get home on leave and back.
2) A lot of men did, my great uncle did the same (although he then ended up at Gallipoli and was sentenced to death for sleeping on sentry. before it was remitted). Perhaps he wanted to do his bit but was fed up with the infantry.
3) Usually they only knew because someone told them, possibly the man himself admitted it.
4) Where a man had re-enlisted the army were generally lenient and the formal punishment wasn't carried through with although I suspect the CO made the point known, perhaps with the help of his senior sergeant.
5) Many men appealed after the war and had the medals reinstated on the basis of their war record.
6) It looks to me like they were issued, presumably before the linkage between the men was made.

Craig
 

[tullybrone]

 

21 minutes ago, verdun said:

Again - many thanks, Craig. Your information indicates that he re-enlisted (18/10/15) soon after he was declared a deserter (12/10/15).

 

Several questions arise:

1. What was he doing back in the UK that enabled him to desert in the first place - leave, or recovering from wounds?

2. Why re-enlist, if you had just deserted?

3. How did the Army realise that Percy Northcote & Henry Northcott (as shown on the two MICs) were the same man?

4. Was there any court-martial/punishment?

5. Why did Capt. Clifford Erskine-Bolst, M.P. get involved? Was it simply to ensure the Percy Northcote got his 1914 Star, to which he was clearly entitled, regardless of his later desertion?

6. Were the BWM and VM withheld?

 

Any/all ideas welcome!

 

 

 

Hi,

 

Re the points you made - 

 

1. Without having sight of his service record it’s hard to say. He may be on a casualty list if he was wounded or injured and returned to UK but if not he would likely have been entitled to UK leave after a year with BEF.

 

2. I’ve seen similar circumstances on other files on Ancestry where soldiers deserted and almost immediately enlisted elsewhere. Various reasons mentioned including unhappiness in original unit.

 

3. Again the answer would be in his service file but reading between the lines I’d suggest that his BWM & VM were likely despatched in 1922 to the Northcott address (he would’ve had to apply) and that prompted him to apply for his 1914 Star In May 1922 - IIRC there was a general amnesty for deserters by that time - and his local MP got involved in October 1922 as he knew it would be complicated.

 

4. As at 2 above I’ve seen files where the man informs his new unit of his true identity and a decision is made by the CO to allow him to ”soldier on” in his new unit without any sanction. I’m sure a similar course of action would've been adopted in this case.

 

5. As above.

 

6. As above - he has 2 MIC.

 

A lot of the above is drawn from experience from seeing other files - you’ll never know the exact circumstances without seeing his file.

 

Steve

Edited 28 January , 2018 by tullybrone

[ss002d6252]

Just found him in the Sheffield Daily Telegraph,
It was noted on 16 Sep 1914 that he had been discharged to his home. He was one 125 men admitted to the Base Hospital, Ecclesall Road, Sheffield on 2 Sep 1914 as wounded.

Whether he had made it back to France or not before Oct 1915 is up for debate.

 

Craig

[clk]

Hi,

 

33 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Just found him in the Sheffield Daily Telegraph,
It was noted on 16 Sep 1914 that he had been discharged to his home. He was one 125 men admitted to the Base Hospital, Ecclesall Road, Sheffield on 2 Sep 1914 as wounded.

 

That's interesting. Mentioned by Mark in post #4 in the other topic FWR have a record transcription which says that at the age of 28 (whilst serving with 'B' Coy, 1 Bn), he was admitted to 2 General Hospital (Havre) on 31st August 1914 with "sore feet". Subsequently he was transferred to a sick convoy on 1st September 1914 (notes: "to Hospital Ship"). At the time it says that he had 10 years service/3 weeks in the field.

 

Rhetorical question...would basic "sore feet" have warranted evacuation back to the UK?*

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit

*...then 2 weeks in hospital, prior to being sent home - presumably for further R&R

Edited 28 January , 2018 by clk

[ss002d6252]

18 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi,

 

 

That's interesting. Mentioned by Mark in post #4 in the other topic FWR have a record transcription which says that at the age of 28 (whilst serving with 'B' Coy, 1 Bn), he was admitted to 2 General Hospital (Havre) on 31st August 1914 with "sore feet". Subsequently he was transferred to a sick convoy on 1st September 1914 (notes: "to Hospital Ship"). At the time it says that he had 10 years service/3 weeks in the field.

 

Rhetorical question...would basic "sore feet" have warranted evacuation back to the UK?*

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit

*...then 2 weeks in hospital, prior to being sent home - presumably for further R&R

I suppose if he wasn't used to marching and he did some damage perhaps but it does seem a long time.

 

Craig

[clk]

Hi,

 

I guess without further records we can't be sure. Speculating, I wondered if it might be as a result of sores that became badly infected, but then again I wondered if "sores" might be some kind of euphemism. Perhaps not relevant, but thinking about my great (x however many) grand father albeit a hundred years earlier, he was discharged as a result of "...a gun shot wound right side received near Waterloo 18th June 1815, and a sore left leg also from a wound at Waterloo".

 

Regards

Chris

[verdun]

Given the helpful replies received above, it now seems that, if Percy Northcote served on a 3/9 basis, he would have left full-time soldiering by 1907. If he was then called up for active service in August 1914, this would have been after a break of seven years.

 

The Retreat from Mons took its toll, even on the Regulars, and a Reservist in newly-issued, unbroken-in boots might have suffered badly. I know there are accounts of men with feet so badly blistered that they abandoned their boots and hobbled along, barefooted and of others who simply had to be left at the roadside, unable to walk any further.

It is quite possible that blistering on this level of severity could lead to infection. "Sore feet" on Percy Northcote's record could easily be seen as classic army understatement!

 

This could certainly be the sort of "bad experience" that might later cause a soldier to desert...