New Army units could not be trusted to hold this line of trenches

[Skipman]

The 8th Infantry Brigade diary 14/8/1915 page 1 page 2

 

"The Brigade was informed that in the near future it was to move back to the trenches at Hooge, the reason given being that the units of the New Army could not be trusted to hold this line of trenches."

 

Was that level of criticism, and the fact it was recorded  unusual?

 

Mike

 

 

Edited 27 January , 2018 by Skipman

[tullybrone]

Hi,

 

Can’t answer your main point but my reading of the original posted statement is that your transcribed  “their” is “this”.

 

Steve

[stiletto_33853]

Interesting. The 8th RB in Woodroffe won the 1st New Army VC for their action at Hooge with many other awards well earned with a few DCM's that could easily have been VC's. Corps staff officers, HQ 2nd Army and GHQ interviewed some of the few officers alive after the event as they had no knowledge of how to deal with a flamethrower attack having never suffered one before. A few weeks before the attack senior officers must have realised the likelihood of such an attack as GHQ wrote to the French asking them for their experience during flamethrower attacks, indeed the first answer from the French was received some two days before the attack.

The two Brigadiers involved during the attack and counter attack stated that they would need a division to retake the position, which proved absolutely correct.

The mine, exploded earlier in July achieved nothing except make Hooge a very very hot place. There were comments as to had the Regular Division they took over from just fired the mine as it was in their area and if indeed they had permission from the top to do so.  Gordon Carey notes the attitude of the relieving troops with comments such as New Army troops are not real soldiers, however after the recapture of the lost trenches McLachlan met some of the officers involved in the recapture with heavy loss, who were nothing but complimentary of the troops who suffered the initial attack after they retook the position.

The 14th Division had only just taken over the area from a Regular division and this was their 2nd stint in the trenches on their own., however older officers with previous service stated that the position was too spread with reserve trenches too far back,  frontline trenches were only 15 yards apart at places and the Germans had planned an attack there, indeed being relieved in their trenches some days before the attack to practice. This area was all laid out by a Regular Division.

 

Lots of other comments to hand if you need them.

 

Andy

Edited 26 January , 2018 by stiletto_33853

[Guest]

Apologies, you're correct Steve and will edit. I just thought it unusual to see such a criticism in a diary.

 

Mike

[Guest]

Well, by chance I have been writing up a local casualty today- an officer of a service battalion of New Armies, (Major Harry Reynolds Chapman)  killed June 1915- and, by sheer chance, at Hooge. New Armies battalions such as his (10th Durham Light Infantry) finished their training in an intense 3 months from February to May 1915, when at least they started getting full kit and rifles. Feeding platoons and companies into the line attached to serving battalions  gave some-but insufficient- training in how to hold and repair a trench line.  And fed into the line for the offensive we know as Loos. 

    Do we know who the officer was who signed off this particular section of War Diary-and, out of interest, how did the units of 8h Infantry Brigade perform at Loos (if engaged-I plead ignorance)? I suspect that before the great attrition battles and heavy casualties from Loos onwards that there were many Regular officers dismissive of the standards of the New Armies. An enduring concern of both world wars was how to win a war with armies that were civilians in uniforms, rather than spit-and-polish Regulars. The more successful commanders worked out how to get the best from citizen armies-and trying to clone pre-war Regular formations was not it.

[Guest]

Thanks both. Interesting. From the Long Long Trail the 3rd Division  " The Second Attack on Bellewaarde (in support of the opening attack in the Battle of Loos) " Not sure how the 8th Brigade performed. Interesting that the 1st Gordon Highlanders of the 8th Infantry Brigade don't seem to have performed well at Le Cateau in 1914., though I remember reading (somewhere on here) that they found themselves surrounded.

 

Mike

[stiletto_33853]

As it says "this" line, I could agree with that as the firing of the mine made it a very very hot place. Maybe not the place for a Division who had a couple of days training in the trenches from a Territorial battalion and this being only their 2nd time in the trenches on their own.

 

Andy

[Guest]

Here's the irony: By Aug 1915 regular Battalions/Brigades and Divisions bore little resemblance of their former constituent parts. The old Army was annihilated in 1914 and their Reservist replacements in late 1914 - early 1915. The majority constituent elements of a regular battalion were not dissimilar to New Army Battalions by Aug 1915 - mostly post declaration recruits augmented by some re-enlisted men and recycled wounded. 

 

One cant extrapolate too much from one diarist's view. It is an argument standing on one leg. MG

 

 

Edited 26 January , 2018 by Guest

[Ulsterdiv]

Never came across anything like this but shows the the thinking between the old and the new in the eyes of the Officer, very interesting 

[stiletto_33853]

Irony indeed. Just checked my notes from Carey, he does state that it was a Scottish battalion the comments came from and that "C" Company (right of the crater) after the initial blast from the flamethrowers and German troops coming through the Crater virtually ceased to exist with their officers such as Rae, Pawle and Milsom standing their ground fighting until killed. Funnily enough the Germans felt that the 6 large flamethrowers used initially would do more to keep the troops hidden with fear than be really effective as flamethrowers, to flat a trajectory. The Germans suffered quite losses as well with their comments that a MG had to be charged frontally as it was very skilfully handled by an officer and it's crew. Jeudwine had quite a bit to say about the matter as he was a BM with the 41st Brigade. Diarist's poetic licence??

 

Andy

Edited 26 January , 2018 by stiletto_33853

[Guest]

He doesn't hold back,  going on to say " These continued moves to different lines of trenches are most disheartening to officers and men. As soon as the Brigade is settled down in one line it is moved off to another, thus rendering any continuity of work out of the question. Not since May 1st has the Brigade done two consecutive tours in the same part of the line. Nothing could suit the Germans better than that the trenches opposite them should be held by a different unit every week. "

 

Mike

[Guest]

Edit. There does not appear to be much evidence that the 8th Infantry Brigade was sent back in to relieve the New Army battalions.... 2 RS and 4 Middx rotated, ditto 1GH and 4GH.  and 2 Suffolks remained in trenches. Inter-divisional reliefs were with 46th Div (TF).

 

9th Inf bde were in fact relieved by the 14th Div during this period....which rather runs against the views of the  8th inf Bde diarist. 

 

 

8th Infantry Brigade, 3rd Division.

 

2nd Bn Royal Scots (8th Inf Bde, 3rd Div)

7th Aug 1915. "Quiet day in the trenches. Battalion relieved by 4th Bn Middlesex Regt. Relief completed at 11:30 pm...."

8th Aug - 12th Sep 1915 in billets.

 

4th Bn Middlesex Regt (8th Inf Bde ,3rd Div)

7th Aug 1915. Relieved 2nd Bn Royal Scots in the trenches.

8th - 23rd Aug 1915 in trenches.

 

2nd Bn Suffolk Regt (8th Inf Bde, 3rd Div)

24th Jul - 23rd Aug 1915. in trenches

23rd July 1915. relieved by 6th Bn Sherwood Foresters

 

1st Bn Gordon Highlanders (8th Inf Bde, 3rd Div)

diary missing between 13th Aug 1915. (see below)

3rd Aug 1915. Relieved by 4th Bn Gordon Highlanders.

3rd- 10th 1915. Billets

10th Aug 1915. Took over trenches from 4th Bn Godon Highlanders (TF)

 

4th Bn Gordon Highlanders (TF) (8th Inf Bde,  3rd Div)

3rd Aug 1915.Took over trenches from 1st Bn Gordon Highlanders

10th Aug 1915. Relieved by 1st Bn Gordon Highlanders

10th-31st Aug 1915. Billets

 

 

9th Infantry Brigade, 3rd Division

 

1st Bn Royal Scots Fusiliers (9th Inf Bde, 3rd Div) war diary

13th Aug 1915 "Bn relieved in trenches by 8th Bn Rifle Brigade, 41st Inf Bde and returned to Bivouacs near OUDERDOM"The Battalion was in billets throughout 14th-17th AUg 1915 and then went back into the trenches to relieve the 1/5th Bn Sherwood Foresters in trenches in Sacnctaury Wood on 191th

 

4th Bn Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regt) (9th Inf Bde, 3rd Div) war diary

13th Aug 1915. Quiet Day. Evening relieved by 7th KRR. No casualties.

The battalion remained in billets in Ouderdom  between 14th and 19th Aug 1915...re-entering the trenches on 19th relieving 1/6th Bn Sherwood Foresters 46th Div (TF)

 

1st Bn Lincolnshire Regt (9th Inf Bde, 3rd Div) war diary

13th Aug 1915. "The battalion was relieved towards midnight by 7th Bn Rifle Brigade

Between the 14th - 20th Aug the battalion remained in Billetsin Ouderdom. relieveing the 1/7th Bn Sherwood Forestesr (46th Div (TF) on 20th Aug.

 

1st Bn Northumberland Fusiliers (9th Inf Bde, 3rd Div)war diary

13th Aug 1915. Artillery duel during the morning. Whizz-banging of CRUMP farm. Releived by 8th Bn KRR during the night. Relief 2 hours late arriving. Relief completed 2 am 14th.

14th-23rd in billets in Ouderdom. Relieved 1st Lincs in trenches on 23rd...

 

...so as far as 9th Inf Bde 3rd Div is concerned, despite what the 8th inf Bde diary states, this part of the Division was not required for the trenches for the best part of a week...

 

 

 

 

Edited 27 January , 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

2 hours ago, QGE said:

So their diary does not quite tally with the HQ Brigade Diary....

 

      I think we may be back to the question of the reliability of a War Diary.  Where we have been before. If  a battalion broke in the line and another had to be rushed in to fill the breach, then it is- just-correct to say that the failed battalion was "relieved". It's British Pathe and Bob Danvers-Walker commentary- "enemy forces were hurled back in disarray"-while British always "retired in good order to prepared positions".

     A War Diary was  written in army-speak. They do not generally show passion and often come across as cold and impersonal when more vivid contemporary accounts are available of the events noted. The comment in a brigade diary is comment and opinion-which, I suspect, would have been squashed from above in a battalion diary.  I do not know if any diaries were returned to battalion for "revision" but I would not be surprised at all if it happened. 

    One aspect that intrigues me- From time to time battalion histories (based on war diaries-I am thinking of 2 where I have not used the WD themselves)  say that a battalion was forced to retire because the battalion next to it had retreated  and the battalion position became untenable with outflanking. Perhaps I should see what the other battalion's historians and War Diary say about retreat.    I have doubts on the reliability of one War Diary- 1st London Irish for a spectacularly botched operation on Christmas Eve (possibly Christmas Day) 1915- a mine was supposed to be exploded under the German line and London Irish had been brought in as a fresh battalion to rush the German line. Unfortunately, detonation of the  British mine touched off a similar German mine coming in towards the British line. A group of London Irish were smothered to death in falling mud (including my local man) but the WD gives the impression that no casualties were caused in this way-rather, all were killed storming the German line.

 

      But if we start mentioning the concept of "fake news" we will get tasered by the Mods. In fairness, it must have been nigh-on impossible for an Adjutant to write about events he was involved in-the more so if the result was not a success and the lives of ORs and brother officers he must have known well were lost in quantity. Perhaps an insistence on army-speak and brevity was a defence against the horrors of war and PTSD. Just a thought.

     

Edited 27 January , 2018 by Guest

[robbie56]

Maybe the distinction between "their" and "this" suggests the headline may need modifying ?

[Guest]

I have added 9th Inf Brigade. Some of the Battalions were in fact relieved in the trenches by New Army units...so the complete opposite of what they 8th Inf Bde diarist was intimating....

 

Separately by this time the regular battalions were receiving drafts from New Army Battalions. For example the 2nd Bn Suffolk Regt (8th Inf Bde) had received a draft from its 10th Bn in August 1915.... so one might resonably conclude that the criticism of the New Army units was a judgment on its leadership rather than the quality of the troops. My perception is that the K1 and K2 had the pick of the men and these were some of the best fighting material the UK could provide. 

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, robbie56 said:

Maybe the distinction between "their" and "this" suggests the headline may need modifying ?

 

Good point. Done.

 

Mike

[Guest]

A thought:

 

The strength of the Battalions in 3rd Div was averaging around 800 ORs....the average strength of the Battalions in 14th Div would have been significantly lower given the heavy casualties in late July. Is it remotely possible that that the New Army Division was "not trusted" because it was numerically weak? 

[stiletto_33853]

Hmmm, the 16th & 18th Brigade (6th Division) relieved the 14th Div, or the 42nd & 43rd Brigades, 41st Brigade remnants were in Ypres, on the night of 5th/6th August.

 

This in itself continues with the irony as in February 1915 this Division (6th), or its diarist, was very scathing regarding the new recruits they received from Scotland and the North of England.

The 14th Division did actually relieve the 3rd Division in this sector, as Martin describes above, the 6th in turn relieved the 14th and went on to retake the lost position.

 

So, we have the diarist of the 3rd making scathing remarks about the new army and the diarist of the 6th commentating on their men from Scotland and the north, no comment.

 

Andy

Edited 27 January , 2018 by stiletto_33853

[Guest]

A deep trawl of the diaries, particularly the HQ 14th Div GS war diaries reveals a rather large paper trail. 

 

In the immediate aftermath of the liquid fire attack and the loss of the Hooge position, there was something akin to the Spanish Inquisition. It went up to Corps level and there are sheets of annotated Q&A where the Corps staff are trying to rebuild the scene minute by minute and questioning every single tiny gap, particularly the time lag between the passage of information upwards to Bn HQ, Bde HQ, Div HQ and to the RA etc. It seems very clear that the Corps Commander was looking for a Scape Goat and they tied their sins to the horns of the 14th Div... 

 

MG

Edited 27 January , 2018 by Guest

[stiletto_33853]

Exactly so Martin. As mentioned before this went up to GHQ level. There was a deep feeling of distaste and anger regarding this Spanish Inquisition among 14th Div Staff with the loss that the Division had suffered in manpower.

VI Corps diary gives a timeline they had worked out from the questioning.

Note no Inquisition regarding the loss of the stables area by regular troops though, only a few comments in 3rd Div. diary with a note in the margin stating no post should be evacuated before being relieved.

 

Andy

Edited 27 January , 2018 by stiletto_33853

[Guest]

1 minute ago, stiletto_33853 said:

Exactly so Martin. As mentioned before this went up to GHQ level. There was a deep feeling of distaste and anger regarding this Spanish Inquisition among 14th Div Staff with the loss that the Division had suffered in manpower.

VI Corps diary gives a timeline they had worked out from the questioning.

 

Andy

 

 

I would dare to consider myself to be reasonably 'informed' and reasonably well read on K1 and K2, particularly Gallipoli and Loos (and everything K related between). My over-riding sense is that these Divisions were extremely badly handled at Corps level. With the small exception of just one Brigade which was attached piecemeal to the 29th Div at Gallipoli to learn trench routine at the hands of seasoned veterans, there appears to have been no battle conditioning for K1 and K2. These formations were thrown into the front line with little consideration for the shock of first encounter. In the case of 14th Div the shock was multiplied by the ferocity and intensity of the German attack as well as the unexpected nature of new technology in the shape of liquid fire.  "Shock and awe" as Stormin Norman Schwartzkopf said two generations later.  

 

My perception is that the psychological effect of Dante's Inferno in the shape of the flammenwerfers was exponentially greater than the physical impact (casualties).  A cursory calculation on the range and duration of these weapons seems to indicate they couldn't have accounted for more than a small percentage of casualties; the maelstrom of HE and shrapnel and MG fire probably did for the majority. ...yet the liquid fire dominates the post war narratives. 

 

I note the commentator and participant of the Rifle Brigade at Hooge states in the Regimental History that there was unfair criticism of the 14th (Light) Division at the time. A lot seems to have been shouldered by the RB and KRRC that blackest of days. 

 

Only a week later the 10th (Irish), 11th (Northern) and 13th (Western) Divs were to enter the fray in the Dardanelles. Three weeks later two thirds were casualties. Loos was not much better particularly for the Scots (9th and 15th Divs) and as you doubtless know the 21st and 24th Divs were castigated for their perceived failures.  July-Sep 1915 was not exactly a success for the concept of the Citizens' Army.  They were catastrophically failed at a much higher level in my view. MG

 

I could not dig; I dared not rob:
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young?