Private : John Canavan

[Paula Holmes]

Hello,  I am researching my granduncle John Canavan he was born 1892 in Gore St, Ballina  Ireland and he serviced in the Connaught Rangers.He joined the Connaught Rangers 30 Aug 1909 Ballina Ratified at the Recruitment Centre Galway 1 Sep 1909 (Private 9813 John was Discharged at Netley Barrack unfit for duty (Insane) 29^th November 1913. John had been stationed for two years in India. A Historian Friend has advised me that when not in battle a medical discharge of insane usually indicated some problem with military or Civil authority that for any number of reasons they wanted to be kept quiet, then the catch-all term of insane was used to get the Soldier  out of the way, and out of the army. John Canavan had by 1915 joined the Irish Guards (Private 8921).  And subsequently the Guards Machine Gun regiment (Private 1689). John Canavan was part of the British Army that faced the German spring offensive (John and their push against the two of Amiens, As near as I can tell from the, was diary of the regiment John was likely one  of the casualties of a German attack 30/31^st March dying from his wounds 13^th April 1918  in the 3^rd Canadian Stationary Hospital Doullens. Typically for the first World War, the names of enlisted men who became casualties are not recorded in the regiment or Hospital war diaries, only the names of the officers. John was laid to rest in the Gezaincourt Community Cemetery (extension) with the grave tended by the British War Graves Commission and visited for the first time by a member of the family when my cousin Jacinta visited in 2015. John’s Military record/discharge gives some insight into what he looked like through a physical description, even, to a scar on his back. Though  I am hoping that their might be a photo of him somewhere and was wondering if you could help me in my search for a photo of my granduncle, please… kind regards look forward to hearing from you. Paula

[ss002d6252]

Quote

A Historian Friend has advised me that when not in battle a medical discharge of insane usually indicated some problem with military or Civil authority that for any number of reasons they wanted to be kept quiet, then the catch-all term of insane was used to get the Soldier  out of the way, and out of the army

I've not come across that myself. There were numerous reasons for discharge that masked the reason why, if that was wanted by the army, and could get a soldier discharged  - http://www.military-researcher.co.uk/KingsRegs1912/Para392Introduction.html . Ultimately if the army wanted a discharge they could do so easily and without any particular need to hide the reasons but insanity may not have been the best option for the army to use as they then had to have a medical certification of insanity and inform the designated next of kin of it.

 

Craig

[tullybrone]

Hi,

 

Have you obtained his Irish Guards service file? I’d have thought they would’ve obtained his Connaught Rangers service papers - if he disclosed previous service - and retained it with his Irish Guards papers. I’d also expect Irish 

 

 

Irish Guards Service files were transferred to the care of the MOD Personnel Centre in Glasgow in August 2016.

 

Steve

 

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

 

OP has also posted - 

 

and

 

 

and

 

 

and

 

 

Edited 26 January , 2018 by tullybrone

[roughdiamond]

On 26/01/2018 at 09:15, tullybrone said:

Hi,

 

Have you obtained his Irish Guards service file? I’d have thought they would’ve obtained his Connaught Rangers service papers - if he disclosed previous service - and retained it with his Irish Guards papers. I’d also expect Irish 

 

 

Irish Guards Service files were transferred to the care of the MOD Personnel Centre in Glasgow in August 2016.

 

Steve

 

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

 

OP has also posted - 

 

and

 

 

and

 

 

and

 

 

 

Are you certain about the Service records Steve? I hadn't seen anything saying the WW1 records had left any of the Guards Regt's HQ's.

 http://www.theguardsmuseum.com/Family-Research

[ss002d6252]

5 minutes ago, roughdiamond said:

 

Are you certain about the Service records Steve? I hadn't seen anything saying the WW1 records had left any of the Guards Regt's HQ's.

 http://www.theguardsmuseum.com/Family-Research

The issue was mentioned here in post #4

Craig

[tullybrone]

58 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The issue was mentioned here in post #4

Craig

 

 

Thanks for saving me a job Craig.

 

I think the context behind this change is that both Regiments will have substantially less of a service record archive compared to the 3 Foot Guards Regiments formed in the 17th Century so it probably isn’t economical for them to have staff engaged in managing their service record Archives in these times of budgetary constraints.

 

Steve

Edited 27 January , 2018 by tullybrone

[keithmroberts]

Could members please show some restraint in copying the content of earlier posts.

 

Keith Roberts

 

[kenf48]

On 26/01/2018 at 09:01, ss002d6252 said:

I've not come across that myself. There were numerous reasons for discharge that masked the reason why, if that was wanted by the army, and could get a soldier discharged  - http://www.military-researcher.co.uk/KingsRegs1912/Para392Introduction.html . Ultimately if the army wanted a discharge they could do so easily and without any particular need to hide the reasons but insanity may not have been the best option for the army to use as they then had to have a medical certification of insanity and inform the designated next of kin of it.

 

Craig

 

For the avoidance of doubt the OP is correct as far as his pre-War service in the Connaught Rangers his papers on FMP here

clearly show ‘To England (insane)’.  At the time the 2nd Battalion was stationed at Ferozopore.  I guess it was a case of Deolali (Doolally)Tap.

 

Ken

 

[ss002d6252]

24 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 

For the avoidance of doubt the OP is correct as far as his pre-War service in the Connaught Rangers his papers on FMP here

clearly show ‘To England (insane)’.  At the time the 2nd Battalion was stationed at Ferozopore.  I guess it was a case of Deolali (Doolally)Tap.

 

Ken

 

Thanks Ken, just had a look at his record.

Bad phrasing by me in my earlier post - what I meant was that discharging a man insane was not something that was done if not required as there were easier ways if they wanted to hide some other reason.

Craig

[Jervis]

Reminds me a little of the Blackadder quote ", I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of here by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?"

 

I have seen a few cases of soldiers having pre-war discharges on medical grounds only to re-enlist with other units during the war. With the insatiable demand for man power during the war, it seems the army were willing to turn a blind eye to age and medical criteria. 

 

I would speculate the "insane" label was probably an umbrella term that covered any mental health issue (depression, PTSD etc. ) which can often be transient in nature. Canavan may well have completely recovered from his ailment before re-enlistment.