1/8 Royal Scots, Pioneer Battalion

[RAVC]

By pure chance I found out last year that my Great Great Uncle, Alfred Moffatt, was killed in action on 12th April 1918 in Flanders. Rank of Private. He was 34. Born in Burnhope, in the district of Lanchester, County Durham and worked at Burnhope Colliery as as miner and then a painter. He enlisted with the 1/8th Royal Scots at Consett, Co. Durham but I cannot find an enlistment date or any other service records except those relating to his death. I know the 1/8th became part of the 51st Highland Division of the 3rd Army on 19th August 1915 as the Pioneer Battalion.

His Service Number was 335167 and his Regimental Number was 8301. His place of death seems to be Comines-Warneton (this may not be correct) during what has been described as the 4th Battle of Ypres or the Battle of Lys. He is remembered on the Ploegsteert Memorial for The Missing on Panel One. I also found out that his name was missing from the Burnhope Memorial. After much help from local councillors his name was added to the Burnhope Memorial during a major refurbishment and re-dedicated in November 2017. I attended that service. This year on the 100th anniversary of his death my wife and I will be visitng the Ploegsteert Memorial to pay our respects.

 

He was listed as injured in the 10th September 1917 edition of  The Scotsman newspaper but no information was included as to how and where. Another 1/8th soldier, Charles Donald, was  listed in that same editon of the newspaper,  as having died of his wounds on 29th July 1917.  Obviously Alfred recovered to be back in the line in April 1918. It seems 17 members of the 1/8th were killed on the same day as Alfred. I have read the War Diary entry for that day but no mention is made of Alfred. That day seemed a very difficult one for the Battalion as it bore the brunt of a major German push.

 

As ex-Army, with an eldest son who is a serving soldier, I would like to find out more about our relative. When did he enlist, where and how was he injured and most importantly where did he die? If anyone can help or give advice to assist I would be very grateful. To know where he died would allow us to visit the place while in Belgium on the 12th April 2018.  Many thanks.

Edited 22 January , 2018 by RAVC
spelling correction

[alf mcm]

Welcome to the forum.

 

You may be interested that Alfred is mentioned on the Scottish National War Memorial Roll of Honour. https://www.snwm.org/content/roll-search/?id=903762&searchid=c5b80d7a02a2d4f618f5990aa85b8dd0&page=1

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[RAVC]

Many thanks for your welcome and reply and for the information. Very much appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Steve Moffatt

Edited 22 January , 2018 by RAVC

[RAVC]

 from the 1/8th Royal Scots War Diary during the Battle of the Lys.

12th April 1918-About 2 a.m. the enemy delivered a heavy attack and broke through on the left.B.Coy were engaged all day in fighting during which several men were lost sight of.Ultimately this Coy. retired behind the Canal.A&C.Coys fought on in the dark till practically surrounded.The enemy were in their rear and captured Bn. H.Q. from which however all escaped except Major Todd and Capt & Adj A.D. Jones who were lost sight of and believed captured.A.Coy less one platoon retired with other troops across the Canal in front of Mony Rehmenchon,the remaining platoon retired south with elements of 152nd Inf. Bde.C.Coy on retiral from the Paradis position established touch with some R.Es. and fomed a line through Pacaut Wood,where they held up a strong attack about 5 p.m.The troops on their right retired but they formed a defensive flank and finally at dusk in company with all other troops in the vicinity retired across the Canal.Orders were shortly after received to march to Busnes,where the Division was assembling.

13th April 1918-About 3 a.m. all men of the Bn.in the forward area had reached the vicinity of Busnes and formed two parties.In the afternoon Capt Mitchell came from rear headquarters and took command of both parties who were now organised as the Royal Scot Coy.of the 153rd Inf.Bde Composite Bn.The night passed quietly. (Although I have a hard copy of this I also found it posted on here from Sept. 2008 by dycer, Major-General)

 

[RAVC]

I'm curious as to why, assuming my GG Uncle Alfred was killed during the actions in France mentioned in the War Diary entry above, is his name on the Ploegsteert Memorial that is some 33kms away in Belgium. Seems odd but maybe there is a reason?

[alf mcm]

Steve,

 

   There is a record set on Ancestry called the Register of Soldiers Effects. This deals with a casualty's War Gratuity. It can be seen here if you have Ancestry. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60506/42511_6117462_0205-00207?pid=125981&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DZjC3659%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DUKArmyRegistersEffects%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26gsfn%3Dalfred%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln%3Dmoffatt%26gsln_x%3D1%26MSAV%3D2%26uidh%3D9y4%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D0%26h%3D125981%26recoff%3D3%204%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=ZjC3659&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

  It shows that Alfred was presumed dead on 12/04/18, so it is unlikely you will find out exactly where he died.

  It may be possible to tell, from the amount of the gratuity, when Alfred enlisted. There are others on this forum who can explain the information on the Register of Soldiers Effects better than me. I am sure they will come along soon.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

 

[RAVC]

Thanks Alf McM.....I have a copy of that documentation although my subscription has lapsed. His five siblings shared a £10 war gratuity with the eldest getting £3. Cheers, Steve

 

(Note: It was suggested to me that perhaps his name was not put on the Burnhope Memorial at the request of his mother. His father was deceased before he signed up. I wonder if he'd fallen out with his Mum for volunteering? I think mining was a reserved occupation wasn't it? Perhaps that's why he had his siblings as his legatees and not his "Ma"? He was single.)

[andrew pugh]

Hi RAVC

The 1/8th Royal Scots took part in the German Spring Offensives and were part of the 51st Highland Division.On the 23rd/24th March 1918 what was left of them were in the area of Fremicourt, Villers au Flos. They were then forced to retire back over the Ancre back to the old Somme battlefields.I have just submitted a case for identification for a 1/8th Royal Scot man called L/Corporal Brunton Smith killed on the 24/03/1918.

Regards

Andy 

[RAVC]

Thanks very much Andrew. Sorry to be ignorant but to where have you made the submission for Brunton and why? If my GG Uncle Alfred was in the areas/s you mention with his Battalion in late March could he have then "marched" to the areas mentioned in the 1/8th's War Diary for the 12th April 1918? From Fremicourt to say Busnes is over 80kms, even more to Pacaut Wood maybe? (This Pacaut Wood and Paradis don't seem to exist in 2018!). It's all very confusing. Cheers and again thanks for the reply, Steve.

[clk]

Hi,

 

The change from his 4 digit number to his 6 digit (335617) number was as the result of the general renumbering of the TF in 1917 - see here. 

 

Forum Pal Craig did a lot of work on understanding war gratuity payments. His mini website is here. It includes a rather useful calculator, which given the amount (£10/10 'type 2') shown as paid in the Soldiers Effects records, indicates that eligible service counted from circa June 1916.

 

As his Effects record shows his death as "on or since 12.4.18  Death presm'd" I was hoping to find an index card with the Red Cross (here) where someone had made an enquiry in the hope that he had been taken PoW. Sometimes, albeit that the enquiry proved fruitless, the card shows information such as the Company a man as serving with. Unfortunately I didn't see one for Alfred.

 

It doesn't appear that he has a surviving will - search page

 

In addition to the Battalion diary, it's well worth looking at Brigade HQ, and Division HQ (General Staff) diaries, as they often contain a lot more contextual information such as copies of orders, reports on operations, maps, etc. The National Archives search page is here, and the Ancestry search page here.

 

If you come across any map references, and need any help, there is advice here.

 

The National Library of Scotland (here) has a selection of trench maps, which using the transparency slider allows you to see how locations fit in to the modern landscape.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

[RAVC]

Hi Chris,

 

Thank you very much. 

 

It's a bit confusing the "presumed dead" references I've found as you have noted above.  On the listing from "Soldiers Died in the  Great War" it states that he was "Killed in Action". This is somewhat confusing. If he was KIA and it was documented why would he then be on the Memorial to the Missing in Ploegsteert?

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[RAVC]

It becoming less foggy. "Mony Rehmenchon" as mentioned in the War Diary above should read "Mont Bernachon"...........that is now making some sense!

[RAVC]

Many thanks to all who gave advice. No actual proof Great Great Uncle Alf died at Paradis but much of the evidence "points" to that being the case. My only remaining query is why is he remembered on the Pleogsteert Memorial to the Missing in Belgium if he was KIA in France some 30 kilometres away? So the trip on the 12th April 2018 will take in Ploegsteert and Paradis and perhaps a couple of other places the 1/8th Royal Scots would had been in early 1918.

 

Best regards.

 

 

[alf mcm]

There was a thread on this forum not long ago about soldiers being killed in one area and commemorated many miles away. Unfortunately, I cant't remember the name of the thread, but I believe the opinion was that it was down to clerical error, due to the numbers involved.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[RAVC]

Thanks Alf McM

[Neill Gilhooley]

There is a battleground guide for this too, Phil Tomaselli, The Battle of the Lys 1918.

 

[RAVC]

Thanks Neill for that.....purchased!!

[Interested]

Hope this helps: Ploegsteert is only 4 or 5 km away from the River Lys, and was in Allied hands on 9th April 1918 but held by the Germans by 12th.   Warneton is only about 4km NE from there. I think it is correct he would be commemorated there, and perhaps his remains were found later?

Chris Baker of this Forum has recently published his latest book "The Battle For Flanders - German Defeat on the Lys 1918", an excellent and comprehensive description.

[RAVC]

Thanks Interested. That seems like a reasonable way to look at it. Have purchased Chris Baker's book. Cheers, Steve