Reburial German soldiers near Ypres

[Aurel Sercu]

I have just added a message about a reburial that will take place near Ypres of 3 Canadian soldiers (Passendale, 9 June).

But a week later, another reburial will take place of soldiers that our team (Diggers) have found : a number of German soldiers, found at Boezinge, will be reburied at Langemark German Soldatenfriedhof, on Wednesday 18 June, at 1 pm.

Those among you who might be in the Ypres area in that period, and who might be interested in being present ...

Aurel Sercu

Diggers

[Patrick Mooney]

Aurel,

We all hear frequently about the succesful efforts to identify British and Commonwealth dead, but have you or any Pals had experience or heard of German remains being identified?

I have spoken to many friends particularly on the Somme who said that after the war and the return of the landowners, any German remains were usually dumped in deep holes or burned on private land, with understandably little sympathy by the local French and Belgians.

This aspect, and your incredible efforts, have always proven one of the most fascinating to me.

Patrick

[Aurel Sercu]

Patrick,

As to identifying remains of fallen soldiers, I cannot say we have been very successful. Up to now, in the past 4-5 years 160 remains have been exhumed by our team (almost half British, approx. 1/3 German, approx 1/5 French). Only 1 has been identified so far (French).

Mind you, it is not our job to identifiy them : right after the exhumation the remains are first handed to the police, and then to the CWGC (Ypres), the Volksbund Deutsche Krieggräberfürsorge, or the French Embassy. Apart from that one French soldier (who had a dog tag on him) none has been identified by these authorities. Which does not surprise us. For of course, already during exhumation we pay special attention to material items that might possibly lead to identification. But so far : nil.

There are "rumours" that not enough is done by the Volksbund, since they are more focused on what is found at the Eastern Front of WW 2. (The reason for this priority, I was told, is that it appears that there is a lot of scavenging over there.) However I do not want to imply that this alleged lack of German interest is our experience, for again : I doubt if anything can be deduced from the scarce items that we have found.

As to the way remains were treated after the war, when landowners returned ... Did things like you referred to happen in Flanders too ? Possible. All I can say is that if 80 years agoremains were not treated the way they should have been, or should be now, I think this is understandable, if you put it in that historical context. People who came back from France after having fled 5 or so years before, had other priorities : finding back the place where there house had been, and not caring about the thousands of remains that were in that wilderness, which had to be turned back into agricultural land.

I do remember however that it is said that more attention was paid to identifiable British remains than to German, since for the former a slightly higher sum was paid by the authorities than for the latter ...

Aurel

[CROONAERT]

Eastern Front of WW 2. (The reason for this priority, I was told, is that it appears that there is a lot of scavenging over there.)

This ,sadly, is all too true.

On a visit to Volgograd several years ago (for a football match - I decided to forgo the drinking and go on a "off the cuff" battlefield tour (that'd probably surprise you, Aurel, going off some of our previous posts!!! - see, I can visit a battlefield and remain sober!!!) ), shortly after the "fall" of Communism, I was led by a couple of locals to the site of a German grave pit (which had already been plundered). They set to work with trowels and unearthed a couple of dog-tags and badges, along with bones (which they duly threw away) and offered them to me for a minimal sum. I refused to pay for these items, but took note of their details. Later I also saw items similar to these being sold openly to us "western tourists" in Volgograd itself. It seems that many cemeteries were just destroyed and forgotten or built over after the war and plunder was, and is, rife. After all, they were "only Nazis", people to be reviled and hated. Quite understandably, the locals don't seem to realise that there were a majority of ordinary men amongst the dead that lie in their fields. Hatreds linger still. This is one reason why the Volksbund are trying to "sort out" the East. -Do it now , before it's too late. These hatreds and unfeelings are not as strong in the west (though the situation in the East has improved tremendously since my last visit - though probably not within the small villages, etc.)

On my return to the UK a couple of days later (after we'd been dumped out of the UEFA Cup ) I wrote to the KGFS with the details on the tags. They (seemingly desperately) grilled me for exact details of where these graves were etc. Information I duly gave.

If easy money can be made from scavenging (which, with the influx of tourism, it can), then this problem will persist in the East.

Dave.

[Aurel Sercu]

Today (1 pm) 26 German soldiers, who our team (Diggers) found in the past two years at Boezinge, were reburied at Langemark German cemetery, with a ceremony attended by a large number of people.

I am attaching a photo, and if it works I'll send one or two more.

Aurel Sercu

[Aurel Sercu]

And one more.

(Actually they were not 'reburied'. Their remains were added into the mass grave (Kameradengrab) which contains the remains of 25,000 fallen soldiers.)

Aurel Sercu

[Michael]

Aurel

Do you know the nationality of the soldiers who are in combats ?

Michael

[Bob Coulson]

Aurel,

Many thanks for posting this info and the pictures.

I would imagine it was a very emotional and moving ceremony.

Bob.

[paul guthrie]

Aerel, how were they added? I know there were actual bones, right? Not ashes or were they cremated? I have never understood how so many men could be in these quite small mass graves.

[AOK4]

Hello,

There was a delegation of the Belgian army present (in combat dress with the rifles).

If you find a soldier after all those years, often a few bones are missing and they really don't need much space.

It was a moving ceremony indeed, especially when a bugler played the "Ich hatt'ein Kameraden".

Jan

PS There were quite a few forum members present, not only from Belgium.

[Guest Hill 60]

Do you know the nationality of the soldiers who are in combats ?

Michael - The combats have a German look to them. However, they could also be Belgian.

[paul guthrie]

Whatever was left were they buried in these coffins? I can't see how there's room.

[Aurel Sercu]

Paul,

I'm afraid I cannot answer your question.

Well, of course I know they were bones, not ashes, not cremated (though some remains I know were far from complete).

I just cannot understand how this mass grave (Kameradengrab) can contain 25,000. I find that very puzzling. I know that at the end of the ceremony the 18 coffins (right, there were remains of 26 soldiers, but not 26 coffins) were lowered into some sort of cellar beneath. But this surely cannot contain 25,000, even if they are a lot smaller that the 'gigantic' Canadian coffins of last week at Passendale.

Maybe Jan can answer my questions ? (I really would like to know, also because I have been asked them by other people more than once.)

- Did the original cemetery have a mass grave ?

- Or maybe only in the 1920s when remains were concentrated here for the first time ?

- Or was the Kameradengrab not created until 1954-56 when appox. 120 cemeteries were concentrated here ?

- And I think there were final concentrations in the early 1970s too ? Maybe most of the remains were added to the mass grave then ?

- And I suppose the 'early' remains (1920s, 1950s and maybe even 1970s) were not in coffins ?

- Do you have any idea how deep this massgrave is, and how large ? the whole area beneath the shrubs, between the bronze panels ?

Sorry for these difficult questions, Jan, but should you know the answers ...

Aurel

[AOK4]

Aurel,

the original cemetery had a Kameradengrab dating from 1914 indeed. I don't think they were using coffins then. All unidentified remains found on other cemeteries in Flanders during the concentration in the 1950's were reburied in the Kameradengrab. In the early 1970's, the German cemeteries in Flanders were made as they were today, I believe new types of crosses etc. were used then. If you look at the Ossuaire in Douaumont or Notre Dame de Lorette, a lot of remains fit in a very small place. As was told today, the Kameradengrab is apparently some kind of a cellar in bricks in which the remains are, so it is impossible to lay more remains in the Kameradengrab itself. Thta's why they are buried in a corridor next to the Kameradengrab.

I hope this is a bit of an answer to your questions. I'm not completely sure about everything but I'll meet Mr. Howe in the near future and ask him some more and let you know.

Regards,

Jan

[CROONAERT]

Do you know the nationality of the soldiers who are in combats ?

Michael - The combats have a German look to them. However, they could also be Belgian.

They're not German,Lee. The pattern is wrong. German combat uniforms are in a very distinctive "Flecktarn" pattern (not dissimilar to the WW2 "pea" pattern worn by SS units 1944-45).

Dave.

[Guest Hill 60]

They're not German,Lee. The pattern is wrong. German combat uniforms are in a very distinctive "Flecktarn" pattern (not dissimilar to the WW2 "pea" pattern worn by SS units 1944-45).

Dave - You're right! I've just had a look at some websites and noticed that the German UN troops were wearing what does look like the old SS pea-pattern DPMs.

Could these soldiers be Belgian then?

[AOK4]

As I have told before, they're definetely Belgians.

Jan

[Guest Hill 60]

As I have told before, they're definetely Belgians.

Jan - Very sorry, didn't see your posting the first time round. I blame the cocktail of pain-killers I'm on

[Aurel Sercu]

Jan,

Thanks for the info with regard to the Kameradengrab.

If you hear more from Mr Howe, I'll be glad to hear it.

Meanwhile I'll try to learn more from someone who (as far as I know) works at the cemetery.

Aurel

[AOK4]

Aurel,

I think I know who you mean. He knows quite a bit.

Jan

[Aurel Sercu]

Just in case you want to see some more photos of the reburial at Langemark.

http://www.diggers.be/N/Ezine/2003/duitsers1806.htm

Aurel Sercu

[egbert]

Aurel,

congratulations for your poppywreath! This is a great gesture - well done with style.

[john w.]

Equality in death .....

Agreed a fine gesture

John

[Aurel Sercu]

Egbert,

Yes, a poppy wreath ... I must say, first I had hesitated, but then I thought : why not ? After all, the poppy has become such a universal symbol.

And as you say, John, "equality in death".

And also : seeing many little poppy crosses on the German cemetery planted by (individual) British tourists ... (who visit the cemetery I guess in larger numbers than German visitors do..)

This also reminds me... Last week at the reburial of the Canadian soldiers at Passendale, after the large impressive official wreaths and bouquets were laid by the authorities or their representatives, it was asked : If anybody else wants to lay flowers, this can be done now.

Then an elderly man stepped forward. And he respectfully lay down a poppy. Only one poppy. But for me this gesture was more poignant than all the large wreaths with beautiful colourful flowers and ribbons with golden lettering together.

Aurel Sercu

[Marc Thompson]

I had the great honour to also be present at the ceremony on Wednesday. It was nice to see a delegation of soldiers from the ceremony present later at the Menin Gate when the excellent Gurkha band were also in attendance.

Regards

Marc

A further photo .....