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Badge of artillery ?


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Bonjour, Je fais des recherches sur l'histoire de mon village (Guivry, Aisne), notamment sur 1914-1918 maintenant.

Nous avons trouvé des badges anglais sur la ville et nous avons du mal à les identifier.

Pourriez-vous nous aider?

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Insigne artillerie Brittanique de la Guerre WW1 un WW2.

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Thank you Frogsmile,

This badge was worn by all gunners?

Whatever the regiment?

Gada

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8 minutes ago, Gada de Guivry said:

Thank you Frogsmile,

This badge was worn by all gunners?

Whatever the regiment?

Gada

 

I am sorry for my bad French.  Yes, it was worn by all gunners.  In WW1 the artillery was divided into two parts, Field artillery and Garrison artillery.  The Field artillery also had a sub-division of Horse artillery with lighter guns, the two are referred to as  Royal Field Artillery and Royal Horse Artillery.  Men were frequently moved between the two parts.  The Garrison artillery also had a sub division of Mountain artillery but in general they operated very heavy (siege) guns and coastal artillery. 

 

All the above branches wore the badge that you have shown on their caps.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Je suis désolé pour mon mauvais français. Oui, il était porté par tous les artilleurs. Dans la Première Guerre Mondiale l'artillerie a été divisée en deux parties, l'artillerie de campagne et l'artillerie de garnison. L'artillerie de campagne avait également une subdivision de l'artillerie à cheval avec des canons plus légers, les deux sont dénommés Royal Field Artillery et Royal Horse Artillery. Les hommes étaient fréquemment déplacés entre les deux parties. L'artillerie de la garnison possédait également une sous-division de l'artillerie de montagne mais, en général, elle utilisait des canons très lourds (siège) et de l'artillerie côtière. 

 

Toutes les branches ci-dessus portaient le badge que vous avez montré sur leur casquette.

 

Merci beaucoup pour ces renseignements !

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26 minutes ago, Gada de Guivry said:

 

Merci beaucoup pour ces renseignements !

 

I am glad to help Gada.  I omitted to mention that the Garrison artillery were referred to as Royal Garrison Artillery.  Although the cap badge was the same for all gunners, on the shoulders were 3-letter metal designators (titles) that you might also find in the mud around your village.  They were: RFA, RHA and RGA.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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12 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

I am glad to help Gada.  I omitted to mention that the Garrison artillery were referred to as Royal Garrison Artillery.  Although the cap badge was the same for all gunners, on the shoulders were 3-letter metal designators (titles) that you might also find in the mud around your village.  They were: RFA, RHA and RGA.

 

"Captain Christopher Manners Williams, of the Royal Garrison Artillery, born on August 2, 1886, was not able to join the army until June 1916 because of his poor health. He arrived in France in October 1916 as a Warrant Officer of the 66th Brigade in which he served until his death. Christopher fell to Guivry March 24, 1918, in the early days of the German offensive, while leading the retreat of his men in very difficult positions, the enemy fighting hard. "

He rests in the British extension of the communal cemetery of Chauny.

I am looking for all the documents and information about his regiment when he fought at Guivry (Aisne).

large.5a5ef1ea194ce_CAPTAINCHRISTOPHERMANNERSwILLIAMS.jpg.c0aef423ea110cae9c4c665edc1bd87f.jpg

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13 hours ago, Gada de Guivry said:

 

"Captain Christopher Manners Williams, of the Royal Garrison Artillery, born on August 2, 1886, was not able to join the army until June 1916 because of his poor health. He arrived in France in October 1916 as a Warrant Officer of the 66th Brigade in which he served until his death. Christopher fell to Guivry March 24, 1918, in the early days of the German offensive, while leading the retreat of his men in very difficult positions, the enemy fighting hard. "

He rests in the British extension of the communal cemetery of Chauny.

I am looking for all the documents and information about his regiment when he fought at Guivry (Aisne).

large.5a5ef1ea194ce_CAPTAINCHRISTOPHERMANNERSwILLIAMS.jpg.c0aef423ea110cae9c4c665edc1bd87f.jpg

 

Gada:  Brigade was the term used within the artillery for several batteries grouped for tactical operation, whereas in the rest of the Army a Brigade was a group of infantry battalions or cavalry regiments.  I mention it because this can cause confusion for the unaware.  

 

History of the Royal Artillery Western Front 1914-18 has 66th (Howitzer) Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery listed on the 11th November 1918 as being equipped with 6" Howitzers. The members of the Brigade being 122, 306, and 325 Batteries (6" Howitzer) and 120 Battery (8" Howitzer). The Brigade was part of the Third Army.

 

There is a war diary for 66 Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery covering 1917 May to 1919 March in the National Archives- WO/395.  There were other 66th Brigades of artillery, so take care that your questions emphasise that it was a Garrison artillery brigade.

 

The 66th Brigade RGA seems to have suffered heavily during the massive German offensive of March 1918.  Captain CM Williams does not seem to have ever been a "Warrant Officer" so I think that is an error.  As the Brigade Adjutant (staff assistant to the Brigade commanding officer (CO)) he would have served in the Brigade HQ and not one of the batteries.  As such he would have been directing (issuing orders from the CO) the Brigade withdrawal as it was pushed back.

 

To give a small example of occurrences within the 66th Brigade RGA at that time, here is a precis from the 122nd (Siege) Battery diary for one day in March 1918:

 

"The Officer and men in the forward OP (Observation Post, where fire was controlled) were taken prisoner, overrun by Germans hidden until the last minute by thick fog. The battery under command of Major W F H Grinsted, was positioned (from the beginning of the month) less one section (4 x 6 in Howitzers 26 cwt) at Gibercourt, with the one forward section (2 Hows) at Ly Fontaine wood. During this battle and without use of their OP they utilised the line of fire taken by a field battery next to them, eventually firing on 'open sights' (i.e. direct fire at very close range) as they became surrounded, prolonging the inevitable by using their rifles and Lewis guns to engage the advancing Germans. In the still thick fog, the tracer bullets of the Lewis guns gave away their position and drew heavy retaliatory enemy fire. Once all their ammunition was expended, they tried to evacuate, but the lack of available transport meant that they did so with only 2 of their 6 guns. "

 

Captain Williams was educated at the famous Winchester College:  http://www.winchestercollegeatwar.com/archive/christopher-manners-williams/

 

"The only son of Robert Manners Howard Williams of Northenby, East Woodhay and Amy Williams (daughter of the Hon. Amias Charles Orde-Powlett of Thorney Hall, Leyburn, Yorkshire). He came to Winchester from Aysgarth School. He won the Gold Medal for gynmastics three years running. He left in 1904 for the Central Technical College, London where he studied engineering, and was later elected a member of the Institute of Civil Engineers and worked in Derby with Messrs Handysides. Ill health prevented him from joining  the Army until June 1916, and he spent the intervening months at Luton engaged in the inspection of fuses.

In June 1916 he obtained a commission in the Royal Garrison Artillery and went to France the following October as Adjutant to the 66th Brigade, with which he served continuously until his death. He fell at Guivry on 24th March 1918, in the first days of the final German offensive, while directing the retreat of his men in circumstances of great difficulty, with the enemy following hard upon them."

CM-Williams-G-1899-1904-700x1009.jpg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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good morning,

 

this cap badge was used after 1916.

 

regards

 

michel

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1 hour ago, battle of loos said:

good morning,

 

this cap badge was used after 1916.

 

regards

 

michel

 

Yes, I agree that it is one of the simplified manufacture badges.

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15 hours ago, Gada de Guivry said:

 

"Captain Christopher Manners Williams, of the Royal Garrison Artillery, born on August 2, 1886, was not able to join the army until June 1916 because of his poor health. He arrived in France in October 1916 as a Warrant Officer of the 66th Brigade in which he served until his death. Christopher fell to Guivry March 24, 1918, in the early days of the German offensive, while leading the retreat of his men in very difficult positions, the enemy fighting hard. "

He rests in the British extension of the communal cemetery of Chauny.

I am looking for all the documents and information about his regiment when he fought at Guivry (Aisne).

 

Gada de G

In  French and some other other European armies an Adjutant is equivilent to a Warrant Offcer in   the British  Army.

An Adjutant in the British Army is a commmissioned officer, usually a Captain, sometimes  a Lt. if no Captains available. They are rersponsible for Admin. Issuin  Orders and Discipline within a unit. The Unit  would normally commanded by a Lt. Colnel such as  an Infantry Bn., Artillery Brigade or Cavalry/Yeomanry Regiment.  Regiment in this sense is not the Three Bn. formation of Continental Armies but a unit of about 650 men for a British Cavalty Regiment and about a Thousand men for a Infantry Battalion . The personell numbers in an Artilery Brigade varied with the type of guns of the Brigade.

I hope this information is helpful for you

 

Bill

Edited by bill24chev
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On 20/01/2018 at 12:03, FROGSMILE said:

 

Gada: Brigade était le terme utilisé dans l'artillerie pour plusieurs batteries groupées pour une opération tactique, alors que dans le reste de l'armée, une brigade était un groupe de bataillons d'infanterie ou de régiments de cavalerie. Je le mentionne parce que cela peut causer de la confusion pour les ignorants.  

 

Histoire du Royal Artillery Western Front 1914-18  a 66th (Howitzer) Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery répertorié le 11 Novembre 1918 comme étant équipé de 6 "Howitzers.Les membres de la Brigade étant de 122, 306, et 325 Batteries (6" Howitzer ) et 120 Batterie (obusier de 8 ") La Brigade faisait partie de la Troisième Armée.

 

Il y a un journal de guerre pour la 66e Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery couvrant 1917 mai 1919 mars dans les Archives nationales - WO / 395.   Il y avait d'autres 66e Brigades d'artillerie, alors faites attention que vos questions soulignent qu'il s'agissait d'une brigade d'artillerie de la garnison.

 

La 66e Brigade de la RGA semble avoir beaucoup souffert lors de l'offensive allemande de mars 1918. Le capitaine CM Williams ne semble pas avoir été un «adjudant», donc je pense que c'est une erreur. En tant qu'adjudant de la brigade (adjoint du commandant de la brigade), il aurait servi dans le QG de la brigade et non dans l'une des batteries. À ce titre, il aurait ordonné (en émettant des ordres du cmdt) le retrait de la brigade à mesure qu'il serait repoussé.

 

Pour donner un petit exemple d'événements au sein de la 66e Brigade de la RGA à cette époque, voici un extrait du journal de la 122e (Siege) Battery pour un jour de mars 1918:

 

Une fois leurs munitions épuisées, ils ont essayé d'évacuer, mais le manque de moyens de transport disponibles les a obligés à le faire avec seulement 2 de leurs 6 canons. "

 

Le capitaine Williams a fait ses études au célèbre Winchester College:   http://www.winchestercollegeatwar.com/archive/christopher-manners-williams/

 

"Fils unique de Robert Manners Howard Williams de Northenby, d'East Woodhay et d'Amy Williams (fille de l'honorable Amias Charles Orde-Powlett de Thorney Hall, Leyburn, Yorkshire), il est venu à Winchester de l'école Aysgarth. Il est parti en 1904 pour le Central Technical College de Londres, où il a étudié l'ingénierie, puis a été élu membre de l'Institut des ingénieurs civils et a travaillé à Derby avec MM Handysides. jusqu'en juin 1916, et il passa les mois intermédiaires à Luton à inspecter les fusibles.

En juin 1916, il obtint une commission dans l'artillerie royale de garnison et se rendit en France en octobre suivant comme adjudant de la 66e brigade, avec laquelle il servit sans interruption jusqu'à sa mort. Il est tombé à Guivry le 24 mars 1918, dans les premiers jours de la dernière offensive allemande, tout en dirigeant la retraite de ses hommes dans des circonstances très difficiles, l'ennemi les suivant durement.

CM-Williams-G-1899-1904-700x1009.jpg

 

Here,

On the cap of Christopher Manners Williams, we can see the cap badge, identical to the one found at Guivry.

I am happy because the insignia found at Guivry correspond (for artillery) to the insignia of the 66th Brigade of the RGA, the same brigade where Captain Christopher Manners Williams was when he died at Guivry on March 24, 1918.

I think that is on this brigade (the 66th) that I have to do a little more research. I wonder if there are documents that ressemble our French regiments "journal de marche du régiment".
Thank you all.

Gada

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3 minutes ago, Gada de Guivry said:

 

Here,

On the cap of Christopher Manners Williams, we can see the cap badge, identical to the one found at Guivry.

I am happy because the insignia found at Guivry correspond (for artillery) to the insignia of the 66th Brigade of the RGA, the same brigade where Captain Christopher Manners Williams was when he died at Guivry on March 24, 1918.

I think that is on this brigade (the 66th) that I have to do a little more research. I wonder if there are documents that ressemble our French regiments "journal de marche du régiment".
Thank you all.

Gada

 

Gada, yes there are documents that resemble your “journals”, they are known as War Diaries and those that survive are in the U.K. National Archives, I have posted the location details for the 66th Brigade RGA War Diary in red coloured print above.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Gada, oui il ya des documents qui ressemblent à vos "journaux", ils sont connus comme journaux de guerre et ceux qui survivent sont dans les Archives nationales du Royaume-Uni, j'ai posté les détails pour la 66e Brigade RGA en couleur rouge ci-dessus.

 

Merci Frog !

 

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Just now, Gada de Guivry said:

 

Merci Frog !

 

 

Mon plaisir!

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6 minutes ago, Gada de Guivry said:

Il ya un journal de guerre pour la 66e Brigade d'artillerie de garnison royale 1917 mai 1919 dans les Archives nationales - WO / 395

 

I will try to find it.

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2 minutes ago, Gada de Guivry said:

 

I will try to find it.

 

It has not been digitised for online search yet, I think, so you may require a researcher in London.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Il n'a pas encore été numérisé pour la recherche en ligne, je pense, alors vous pourriez avoir besoin d'un chercheur à Londres.

I just saw it by going to the National Archives. It will be complicated. Maybe I will find someone who downloaded it?

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10 minutes ago, Gada de Guivry said:

I just saw it by going to the National Archives. It will be complicated. Maybe I will find someone who downloaded it?

 

Yes that might be possible.  I agree that the website is complicated. Not the best example of intuitive operation!

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