No1 MKI Cup Discharger Pouch

[mark holden]

I thought this might be of interest a No1 MKI Cup Discharger Pouch by Hepburn Gale and Ross Ltd. The cartridge pocket is part of the original manufacture not a field modification. Any ideas on the use of the narrow web strap attached to the belt loop at the top of the pouch would be gratefully received.

 

Thanks

 

Mark

[Chasemuseum]

Hi Mark,

I have always considered the horizontal 1-inch strap to be to allow the pouches to be used like the P1937 utility pouch set. http://karkeeweb.com/patterns/1937/1937_pouches.html 

Web Equipment, Patt. 37, Pouch, utility, front, with waist strap and Web Equipment, Patt. 37, Pouch, utility, rear, with loop and Web Equipment, Patt. 37, Yoke  That is,  two yoke straps over the top and 4 pouches secured to each other around the body, over the top of the normal field equipment. The lewis MG panniers configure in the same manner. Obviously the P37 rig is based on these two earlier P08 equipments. The long 1-inch strap on the P37 incorporates learned improvements, making the equipment easier to use with 2 rather than 4 utility pouches.

 

I hate to think how heavy the 4 lewis panniers would be with all of the ammunition. In an AIF infantryman's autobiography I have, he talks about be assigned to carry the lewis panniers at one time, and throwing the set away because they were so heavy.

 

With the grenade set, I would expect the other pouches to be used to carry spare grenades. Unfortunately I do not have a photo of these pouches in use to confirm this. Hopefully someone can assist.

Cheers

Ross 

[mark holden]

Many thanks Ross I think your logic makes sense its just frustrating that period photos and manuals of this equipment are so scarce. 

[Pete_C]

12 hours ago, mark holden said:

Many thanks Ross I think your logic makes sense its just frustrating that period photos and manuals of this equipment are so scarce. 

Hi Mark

I’m only aware of these two photos showing the carrier being worn in action. In each case it’s worn on the belt behind the right hand cartridge carriers. I don’t think anyone has yet definitively identified how the 1” lateral strap is deployed. When worn as illustrated the strap would more or less lie alongside the diagonal strap from the carriers to the haversack bottom - maybe it interacts here in some way as a steadying strap ?

 

Pete

 

 

[mark holden]

That's excellent thanks Pete!

[gronksmil]

Hi Mark, I was just wondering if the ammo pouch on the side was big enough

for the discs used with the cup or used for the special ammo? Regards gronky.

[mark holden]

5 minutes ago, gronksmil said:

Hi Mark, I was just wondering if the ammo pouch on the side was big enough

for the discs used with the cup or used for the special ammo? Regards gronky.

H Gronky, I am sure its for the special blank cartridge. Regards Mark

[Chasemuseum]

The pouch is large enough to hold a couple of grenades with the discs fitted

Cheers

Ross

[Pete_C]

On 21/01/2018 at 22:30, Chasemuseum said:

The pouch is large enough to hold a couple of grenades with the discs fitted

Cheers

Ross

The pouch was only ever meant to hold the cup discharger, not the grenades. The pocket attached to the outside was added to hold the ballistite cartridges. 

 

Cheers

 

Pete

 

(Photo courtesy IWM, I think)

 

 

 

 

 

[Chasemuseum]

Quote

 

 

11 hours ago, Pete_C said:

The pouch was only ever meant to hold the cup discharger, not the grenades.

A bold definitive statement. Without supporting documentation I do not accept this. The manuals I have read on grenades never discuss the pouches (I wish they had).

 

The whole concept of WE08 was flexibility in use. In a period where grenade launching was not restricted to dedicated rifles the use of cups could be moved between any soldiers trained in their use as required. The WE P37 utility set was latter to expand this by having an equipment readily slung over the ordinary WE and dropped off as required. 

11 hours ago, Pete_C said:

The pocket attached to the outside was added to hold the ballistite cartridges

Additionally, these pouches are made both with and without the pocket for the cartridges. 

[Pete_C]

On 24/01/2018 at 06:09, Chasemuseum said:

 

A bold definitive statement. Without supporting documentation I do not accept this. The manuals I have read on grenades never discuss the pouches (I wish they had).

 

The whole concept of WE08 was flexibility in use. In a period where grenade launching was not restricted to dedicated rifles the use of cups could be moved between any soldiers trained in their use as required. The WE P37 utility set was latter to expand this by having an equipment readily slung over the ordinary WE and dropped off as required. 

Additionally, these pouches are made both with and without the pocket for the cartridges. 

 

‘’A bold definitive statement” - not really, just stating plain fact.

There were 2 issues of pouches plus a modification. LoC number 23255 (below) from March 1920 refers to “Pouch, rifle grenade discharger”. This is a modification to the first issue pouch to add a “pocket, to carry special blank cartridges, fitted to the right hand side of the pouch” - this is the pouch shown in the opening post. The first issue pouch was not covered by a LoC entry and did not have a pocket - blank cartridges were often carried in a single pocket simply cut from the lower pouches of salvaged cartridge carriers - the brass “C” clip and narrow strap were retained so that it could be fastened to the waist belt behind the cartridge carriers. The second issue pouch had an integrally woven pocket. Specifically for carrying grenades, the British had a ten pocket vest (US 11 pocket) - grenades were not carried in the “pouch, rifle grenade discharger”, the discharger was. 

Pattern 1908 web equipment was not flexible in the way you perhaps allude to - it was designed for a rifleman. Its flexibility came solely from the ability to move individual components to different carrying positions. In this way the water bottle, entrenching tool and haversack could be worn either front, back or sides. Furthermore, the pack could be discarded before moving into the trenches and its position taken by the haversack. Components introduced during the war - Lewis drum panniers, grenade discharger pouch, wire cutter carriers - could be simply hung from, or over, any basic set of equipment, not just Patt 08. Indeed, the discharger pouch worn by the TF chap in the earlier photo is fastened to his Pattern 1914 Leather Equipment. Interesting to note the earlier pattern (rodded) grenade discharger fastened to his water bottle carrier. 

Pattern 1937 Web equipment was truly flexible in that there was no “ammunition pouch” per se because the basic pouch was required to carry Bren Mags, SAA in cotton bandoliers and grenades. Two sets of utility pouches were also carried in the style of the Lewis drum panniers. 

 

All the best,

 

Pete

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 25 January , 2018 by Pete_C

[mark holden]

Pete,

 

Excellent and thanks you for reproducing the original documentation which has allowed me to confirm what I have!

 

kind regards

 

Mark

[Chris Henschke]

Just because the rifle grenade discharger pouch was made of web, does not make it pattern 1908 equipment, as post No. 10 appears to indicate. The pouch was designed to be used WITH pattern 1908 or pattern 1914 equipment. To be worn on the left side of the belt.

In answer to the original question by Mark Holden in post No.1, the 1-inch retaining strap was used to buckle through the loop of the cartridge carrier or ammunition pouch to stop it from slipping off when the belt is unbuckled.

Only one pouch per cup discharger was issued so the concept of using four together seems to be speculative. In 1918, other methods were used to carry grenades, for example, in a second haversack.

 

Chris Henschke

[Pete_C]

2 hours ago, Chris Henschke said:

Just because the rifle grenade discharger pouch was made of web, does not make it pattern 1908 equipment, as post No. 10 appears to indicate. The pouch was designed to be used WITH pattern 1908 or pattern 1914 equipment. To be worn on the left side of the belt.

In answer to the original question by Mark Holden in post No.1, the 1-inch retaining strap was used to buckle through the loop of the cartridge carrier or ammunition pouch to stop it from slipping off when the belt is unbuckled.

Only one pouch per cup discharger was issued so the concept of using four together seems to be speculative. In 1918, other methods were used to carry grenades, for example, in a second haversack.

 

Chris Henschke

 

 

That sounds entirely plausible Chris and it clearly works. I don’t think too much should be read into the two known war time photos showing it worn at the rear right - soldiers would carry it where it was most comfortable, regardless of intended use.

My only reservation is that if it was simply intended only to fit to the front of the waist belt, why have an elaborate 2 inch strap and buckle arrangement when a simple stitched loop would suffice. It could have been to make allowance for the different widths of the leather and web belts, to ensure a tight fit, but I would also speculate that maybe there was an intended ‘alert’ position for ready use at the front, but also the option to move it to the rear, out of the way, when not immediately required - the 2 inch strap and buckle arrangement would enable attachment to the rear belt position without removing the cartridge carriers.

Do you have any supporting contemporary evidence to nail it completely. The fact that the first issue pouch - your pouch - did not even warrant a LoC entry would suggest that there isn’t likely to be a set of fitting instructions. 

 

All the best

 

Pete

Edited 31 January , 2018 by Pete_C

[mark holden]

Chris,

 

Many thanks for clearing up the mystery of the 1 inch strap seeing it worn on your 1914 equipment makes sense of its purpose.

 

Thank you

 

Mark

[Chris Henschke]

Re post No.14 :

Pete,

The loop by which the pouch is attached to the belt had a buckle to allow the pouch and contents to be easily detached in the event of the wearer becoming a casualty. Given that a pattern 1914 belt was 2 1/4-inches wide and the pattern 1908 belt was 3 inches wide, a buckle was necessary for it to be fitted correctly on either equipment.

Wearing the pouch as illustrated by the photographs was probably a much more comfortable method of carriage.

Chris Henschke