Pte Edward Smith - 76252 Manchester Regt; formerly 54628 East Yorks Regt

[Bob.NB]

I'm trying to research 76252 Pte Edward Smith who died (was killed in action) on 19 October 1918 while serving with the 21st Battalion Manchester Regiment in France.

Previously he had served as 54628 Pte in the East Yorkshire Regiment.

He was born in West Heslerton in 1899.

Can anyone tell by looking at his East Yorkshire Regiment number when he enlisted and into which battalion?

Any information would be most gratefully received.

Many thanks.

Bob B

[Mark1959]

His War Gratuity is £3. That implies, I believe, service started less than a year before his death.

[ss002d6252]

12 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

His War Gratuity is £3. That implies, I believe, service started less than a year before his death.

That's correct.

 

Craig

[RussT]

Just to note that Randolph Butterfield was called-up to the 3rd (Res) Battalion of the EYR on 24/05/1918. He was allotted the EYR number 54626

 

He was transferred to the Manchester Regiment on 22/06/1918 and given his new Manc Rgt number of 76193.

 

Would suggest that Edward Smith followed the same route (probably with others) - would be best to look at further records to help to confirm.

 

Regards

 

Russ

[Bob.NB]

Guys,

That's really great information - thank you very much indeed.

Might I kindly ask from which records you established a war gratuity of £3.

Best wishes and thanks again for your time and knowledge.

Bob B 

[Mark1959]

1 hour ago, Bob.NB said:

Guys,

That's really great information - thank you very much indeed.

Might I kindly ask from which records you established a war gratuity of £3.

Best wishes and thanks again for your time and knowledge.

Bob B 

Soldiers Effects register available on ancestry. Search by name and Manchester number. As the Manchester details are the only ones on the medal rolls it implies that his service abroad was entirely with the Manchesters. So supposition is went overseas around or after 22/6/18.  

[jonbem]

He might have known my granddad and his family. They were just up the road at

Knapton Yedingham, Yorkshire-North Riding, England in 1911. May have known the family.

Although by 1916 Great Uncle Fred (Pic to left - avatar) was at Ampleforth as a railway porter, I presume my granddad was still with the family as a 11 or 12 year old.

Edited 17 January , 2018 by jonbem

[Bob.NB]

Gentlemen,

Very many thanks for all this information.

Yes I had noticed that there was no East Yorks Regt on his BWN/Vic medal roll entry - interesting to note that he therefore only went overseas with the Manchesters.

 

Mark,

I've subscribed to Ancestry for several years but I don't think I've ever managed to find Soldiers' Effects - I regularly use MiCs, medal rolls, service documents etc but never Soldiers' Effects.

Could you possibly let me know the link.

Very many thanks.

Bob B

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, Bob.NB said:

Gentlemen,

Very many thanks for all this information.

Yes I had noticed that there was no East Yorks Regt on his BWN/Vic medal roll entry - interesting to note that he therefore only went overseas with the Manchesters.

 

Mark,

I've subscribed to Ancestry for several years but I don't think I've ever managed to find Soldiers' Effects - I regularly use MiCs, medal rolls, service documents etc but never Soldiers' Effects.

Could you possibly let me know the link.

Very many thanks.

Bob B

 

This should get you to the effects records - https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=60506

 

If you're interested in the war gratuity take a look at the link in my signature.
 

Craig

[Bob.NB]

Mark,

That's brilliant - thank you very much.

I've saved it to my favourites - still not sure why it doesn't come up when I put exactly the same details in a search in the Military section of Ancestry: Oh the joys of search engines!

Thank you once again and best wishes.

Bob B

[RussT]

On ‎17‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 16:14, Mark1959 said:

As the Manchester details are the only ones on the medal rolls it implies that his service abroad was entirely with the Manchesters. So supposition is went overseas around or after 22/6/18.  

 

All the best clues are in the service records - always worth looking at these in order to construct informed estimates.

 

Another example:

 

William John Welburn

Called up to the East Yorkshire Regiment Depot on 24/05/1918 and allotted EYR number 54627

Posted 3rd (Res) Battalion EYR 29/05/1918

Transferred to the Manchester Regiment (I think the 3rd (Res) Battalion) on 22/06/1918 and allotted Manchester Regiment number 76261

Posted to BEF 04/10/1918 and also served in the 21st Manchester Regiment (he likely had a spell of a couple of weeks at an IBD before joining this Manchester Service Battalion in the field).

 

One can find the locations for all these Battalions during these timeframes if one wished.

 

So these details align with Butterfield as per post 4 and are likely to be the same as Smith's route. Wouldn't be surprised if they all knew each other being in the same cohort.

 

Interesting is that they started infantry training in the EYR and then transferred to the Manchester Regiment well before their training would have been completed and well before they were eventually posted to the BEF. Compare that with the more common route of others who trained with a reserve battalion of one regiment only to be transferred to another regiment upon arrival at an IBD once posted to the BEF.

 

So these records readily explain why his EYR details don't appear on his medal roll (& MIC) and give as good an estimate as any of Smith's arrival in theatre.

 

I've posted the authority for the transfer - I would be interested from others what it says and what it means in the sense of whether it offers any clues for the transfer in the UK part way through infantry training.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

 

 

 

Edited 18 January , 2018 by RussT

[RussT]

The 21st Bn Manchester Regiment arrived in France from their stint in Italy on 13th September 1918. They joined 7th Bde in 25th Division

 

The 21st Bn Manchester Regiment War Diary provides the number of reinforcements throughout October 1918 (attached).

 

If Smith followed the same route as the others as noted above, then it looks likely he joined them in the field on 13/10/1918 alongside 111 others, only to be KiA a few days later on the 19th.

 

You could examine the War Diary for the action/event in which he was KiA.

 

Russ

 

 

[Bob.NB]

Guys,

Thank you once again.

I cannot find a copy of his service documents which, given that he was a very young soldier killed in action with no dependents (so his papers may well not have been retained in the first place) and given that some 60% of papers were destroyed in the Blitz, is not surprising. 

I have a copy of the history of the 21st Battalion so with that and what you have all told me above I think I've got Edward Smith more or less nailed.

Thanks again for all your help.

Bob B

 

[jonbem]

On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 15:00, Bob.NB said:

but never Soldiers' Effects.

Could you possibly let me know the link.

if you search on Ancestry

then

Military

then on left list it is under

Soldier, Veteran & Prisoner Rolls & Lists
 

[Bob.NB]

Thanks Colonel.