IDing Highland Regiment in Bethune

[AmericanTommy]

I've recently acquired two postcards which when brought together show a panorama of Bethune sometime in 1915-16. The photos depict a Highland battalion at a formation (probably a medal parade) with a pipe band and pipes and drums. I'm trying to ID the battalion and would love any help! I've zoomed in on the cap badges and I'm leaning towards A&SH but open to suggestions!

 

 

 

[Guest]

There appears to be a band playing in addition the the Pipes and Drums. This was a fairly rare thing as battalion bands were generally disbanded, instruments left in the UK and the bandsmen formed part of the SB section with the MO. 

 

Some Divisions record having bands (possibly ad hoc) and the bands of the various Guards regiments took turns to go to France. It might be a red herring but the presence of a band, particularly in 1915 might help establish when and which units. 

 

If I may ask what is the source of the date range? My first impression was this was towards the end of the war, possibly post war. - a period when bands were more prevalent. M

Edited 15 January , 2018 by Guest

[AmericanTommy]

2 hours ago, QGE said:

If I may ask what is the source of the date range? My first impression was this was towards the end of the war, possibly post war. - a period when bands were more prevalent. M

 

 

Solid notes on the presence of the separate band. I put the 15-16 range because there are no SBRs being worn, only PH Hoods (Or Hypo Hoods for that matter) as well as the men wearing the bonnet which replaced the glengarry for front line use. It's smaller size makes it distinguishable from the later tam o'shanter which came about in early 1916 at the time that helmets were becoming standard front line wear. Now as I continue to scan I'm finding several men IN helmets. That would narrow it to 1916. Here are some close ups: 

 

 

Edited 16 January , 2018 by AmericanTommy

[Andrew Upton]

On 16/01/2018 at 08:58, AmericanTommy said:

...I put the 15-16 range because there are no SBRs being worn, only PH Hoods (Or Hypo Hoods for that matter) as well as the men wearing the bonnet which replaced the glengarry for front line use. It's smaller size makes it distinguishable from the later tam o'shanter which came about in early 1916 at the time that helmets were becoming standard front line wear. Now as I continue to scan I'm finding several men IN helmets. That would narrow it to 1916. Here are some close ups: 

 

 

Always worth repeating, but:

 

 

 

On 21/09/2008 at 00:08, Joe Sweeney said:

There seems to be some confusion about when Tams started to be issued. They were available from the summer of 1915. In fact they were pattern sealed on 19 May 1915.

The table below is from GRO published in October 1915 (GRO 1201) for winterscale issues to the BEF. The Tam is clearly on the list as is the Balmoral. Be careful on identifying Tams and Balmorals just on size. All bonnets with large crowns were Tams. However, Small sized Tams can be confused with Balmorals. Balmorals had distinctive Edge binding (Usually a dark heavy cloth boarder like the wartime simplified Glens) and were made out of thick felted wool. Tams had no dark edge binding on thw sweatbaand and were made of Serge. These can be confused but the Tams usually have a looser flopper appearance.

The headgear to me look like Tams.

Below is conglomaration of GRO 1201 and some following amendments that show the issue of the Balmoral and Tams in 1915.

I think the photo could probably date as early the late winter 15/16 may be around March. The man wearing shorts is actually probably wearing the "Drawers short for Highlanders" i.e. his undies.

Joe Sweeney

 

[gordon92]

19 hours ago, AmericanTommy said:

I'm trying to ID the battalion and would love any help! I've zoomed in on the cap badges and I'm leaning towards A&SH but open to suggestions!

 

I would agree that the cap badge is highly likely to be A&SH.

[Guest]

If it is the A&SH, the 2nd Bn war diary records being in billets in Bethune on and off throughought Aug-Nov 1915.  Endless parades. Similarly the 11th (Service) Bn war diary records being billeted in Bethune on and off between Apr and July 1916 with a long period through July. Lots of Parade and presentation of medals as well as an inspection by GOC 1st Corps (Munro) on 12th July etc.

 

WO 95/1365

WO 95/1944

 

Separately. I think the church in the background might provide some valuable clues. I think it is l'eglise St Vaast, Bethune which was destroyed at some stage during the war and completely rebuilt in 1924.

 

http://www.arnaudwillay.net/2015/07/1918-reconstruire-une-eglise-en-ruine-article-1-11.html

https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC5WJ3Z_la-grand-place-de-bethune-speciale-yohaeva?guid=9fa35b60-d337-43a2-a8cd-c70a36b0b830

 

Given it is intact in the photo if you can identify when the church was destroyed it will at least provide a 'not after' date

 

MG (one time student of architecture)

 

 

Edited 16 January , 2018 by Guest

[gordon92]

One further footnote on the difference between Balmorals and Tam O'Shanters: Balmorals were of one piece construction exclusive of the headband edge binding.  In contrast, Tams were manufactured, exclusive of the headband, in 2 pieces (the top itself and the underneath section that tapered into the headband).  The Tams were simpler to manufacture.  This is an esoteric point not especially useful when evaluating photographs but I think worth mentioning nonetheless.

 

 

                                                            Tam                                                                                                                                      Balmoral

,

[JWK]

From the link:

 

"12 avril 1918, l’ordre d’évacuation est notifié par le sous-préfet. Quelques jours plus tard, des obus s’abattent sur la Grand Place. 90% de la place est détruite laissant un spectacle de ruine et de désolation. L’église Saint-Vaast était également détruite." 

 

On 12th April 1918 the evacuationorder was given by the deputy prefect. Some days later shells started to rain down on the main square. 90% of the square was destroyed, leaving behind a sight of destruction and desolation. The Church Saint-Vaast was also destroyed.

 

 

Here's the deputy prefect who issued the evacuationorder, Adrien Bonnefoy-Sibour

He stayed behind in Béthune "with 50 inexorables"

(From wegenvanherdenking-noordfranrijk.com )