Help with RN Service Numbers and Personnel Records

[Buffnut453]

Hi Folks,

 

I'd appreciate a few steers as regards WW1 RN personnel records.  I've found a relative, Ernest Gamble, that I believe served in the RN but I'd like to confirm that it is, indeed, my relative.  My hometown published a compilation of Absentee Voter Lists from 1918 thru 1923 and in there I found an Ernest Gamble, Service No. S.S.4432 or 4432SS (the latter was transcribed as 443255).  According to the record, he was serving as an Able Seaman (I presume that's the "A.B." from the record) aboard HMS Gabriel in 1918 and in the autumn of 1919. 

 

Intriguingly, I also found a court martial record on Ancestry.com for an A.B. E Gamble, listed as R.N.V.R., dated 7 September 1916 at Blandford.  He was convicted of being AWOL, losing public property/equipment and "40 miscellaneous offences", and was sentenced to 42 days' detention and stoppages of pay. 

 

Now for the key question...how do I confirm that these 2 individuals are (a) the same person, and (b) that they are my relative?  I can't seem to locate an equivalent to the personnel records I've found for relatives that served in the Army or RAF so I've nothing indicating date of birth or hometown residence. 

 

As a secondary question, what's the correct presentation for Ernest Gamble's service number and what does the "S.S." mean?  Is it "Short Service" and hence related to the RNVR status of the E Gamble in the court martial records or am I barking up completely the wrong tree?

 

I'd appreciate any insights the experts here can provide, as well as any pointers to records I may have missed. 

 

Many thanks,

Mark

Edited 5 January , 2018 by Buffnut453

[charlie962]

4432's service record is here on FMP

 

b 31/10/93 StHelens, Lancs

 

Nothing obvious on his record so Ct martial probably not him

Edited 5 January , 2018 by charlie962

[Terence Munson]

And here on the National Archives site: Link

Terry

[horatio2]

SS.4432 - Ernest GAMBLE b. 31/10/1893. Bristol Z/4199 - Able Seaman Edward Gamble b. 1/3/1899, home address Nottingham; k.i.a. 30/12 1917. Edward was at Blandford  Camp (RND) in October 1916, being drafted to a reinforcement draft to the BEF in December 1916 after his sentence to detention.

 

SS.4432 - SS = Special Service (engaged for 5 years in the Fleet and 7 years in the RFR).

 

 

Edited 5 January , 2018 by horatio2

[Buffnut453]

Wow!  Thanks for all the fantastic (and rapid) responses.  Really appreciate the pointers.

 

Naturally, the answers also prompt some questions.  I suspect SS 4432 is "my" Ernest Gamble but the date of birth doesn't tally.  I'm guessing he joined under-age and there was some chicanery regarding his paperwork.  "My" Ernest Gamble was born on 30 November 1895 and married Sarah Garner in 1916.  According to the Absentee Voters List, SS 4432 Ernest Gamble's St.Helens residence was the same as that of Pte Joseph Garner, South Lancs Regt.  Also, there's no record of an Ernest Gamble being born in St.Helens in 1893.  So, taken together, I think this IS my relative but that he lied about his age when joining up. 

 

I'll need to do some more digging to tease out all the info included in his service record because I'm completely unfamiliar with RN records.  I can make out Exmouth, Argyll, Gabriel  and Woolwich, and I'm guessing "Vivid I" is Devonport (bless Google!).  However, others are harder to make out and I'll have to do some more searching to ensure I've gleaned all the info I can from this record.

 

Again, many, MANY thanks for all your help.  I may come back with other questions as I try to decipher the RN jargon from the record.

 

Kind regards,
Mark

[horatio2]

To enter a Special Service engagement a man had to be 18-25 years of age but a boy could enlist on a normal Continuous Service engagement (12 years in the Fleet from age 18) at the age of 16, with Parental Consent. To enlist on SS in 1912 he would have to be born in 1894.

[Buffnut453]

It's definitely an intriguing discrepancy.  I have his birth certificate and there's no doubt it was 30 November 1895.  Also, when I look for Ernest Gambles, I find only that birth in all of Lancashire for 2 years either side of 1893 (the only exception is an Alfred Ernest Gamble born in Derby in 1891).  The only conclusion I can come to is that he lied about his age or the recruiter fudged the record so he could enlist on the Special Service engagement. 

 

Are there any other likely explanations?

[horatio2]

Only two possibilities:- 1. Your Ernest Gamble did not serve in the Royal Navy or 2. This is your man but he overstated his age on enlisting, perhaps because his parent/guardian would not consent to his joining as a boy. If the recruiting office had no reason to doubt his age (over 18 for SS), as sworn, he would not have had to produce a birth certificate.

[alf mcm]

Mark,

  I see from a family tree on Ancestry that Ernest and Sarah had a daughter, Marian, born in 1917. There's a good chance that her birth certificate would show if her father was in the Navy, and may even show his service number.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[Buffnut453]

It's looking increasingly likely that this is my Ernest Gamble.  The 1911 Census lists only one Ernest Gamble in St.Helens (there are only 4 in all of Lancashire, and none were born in 1893).  I'll take a look at the birth certificate for Marian Gamble and see if it confirms what I suspect.

 

I've started looking into his service record and it seems like the first few years of his service were pretty eventful:

26/08/1913 - 24/10/1913:  HMS Vivid (presumably training at Devonport).

28/10/1913 - 27/02/1914:  HMS Exmouth.  At this time, Exmouth was a gunnery training ship at Devonport.  Does this imply Ernest was training to become a member of the gunnery team? 

28/02/1914 - 20/12/1915:  HMS Argyll.  He was part of Argyll's complement when she captured a German merchantman on 06/08/14 and when she ran aground on 28/10/15. 

21/12/1915 - 08/06/1916:  HMS Vivid again.  Presumably for additional training or re-training?

09/06/1916 - 31/07/1918:  HMS Gabriel as part of the Thirteenth Destroyer Flotilla, primarily with the depot ship HMS Woolwich and then, during July 1918, with HMS Columbine.

01/08/1918 - 16/02/1919:  HMS Gabriel as part of the Twentieth Destroyer Flotilla with the depot ship HMS Leander. 

 

Ernest entered the reserves on 17 Feb 1919 and apparently was only recalled to the flag once in the period Apr-Jun 1921. 

 

I can't find much info on HMS Gabriel or on the activities of the Thirteenth or Twentieth Destroyer Flotillas so I'm guessing it was a lot of routine patrolling etc.  I know some of the Thirteenth Destroyer Flotilla participated in the Second Battle of Heligoland Bight but Gabriel wasn't involved in that action. 

Edited 17 September , 2023 by Buffnut453

[Buffnut453]

Ok...still working on the service record.  I've uploaded a copy here so you can all see what I'm seeing.  I'd appreciate some steers on the following:

1. His initial Rating looks like "Grd" but I'm assuming it's "Ord" for Ordinary Seaman.  Is that a fair assumption?
2. In the "Ships etc Served In" the first entry is HMS Vivid at Davenport.  What is the "I" after Vivid?  Does it designate he was under instruction?
3. He has 2 Sub-Ratings, "S.G." which I believe is Seaman Gunner and "G.I."  Is the latter "Gunner Instructor, perhaps?
4. Under Character and Ability, the Character section is pretty straightforward, "V.G." presumably meaning Very Good throughout his service.  The Ability column is a little trickier.  I think the first 3 entries read "Sat" for Satisfactory and the last 3 read "Supr" for Superior (this is a guess).  What's the entry dated 31 Dec 1916? 
5. At the right of the form, below the "Wounds, Scars, Marks" section, is some text that looks like "New 26 to Mean 5/28 (SC1750)".  Any ideas what that indicates?  Perhaps an extension beyond his initial 5+7 engagement?
6. Finally, any suggestions about the remarks section?  I realize the original is quite badly damaged in that region but I think I can make out the following first line:  "New SC written 23 Dec 15 (To.....[unreadable] Woolwich Dec 16."  The next row reads "Over 5 yrs SS 26...[unreadable but possibly "26-8-18]" which would tally with the notation for his last entry serving aboard HMS Gabriel.  Finally, there looks to be "£5 DG", perhaps related to the stamp below for "Paid War Gratuity". 

 

I realize the above is a LOT of questions but any insights would be most gratefully received.

 

Many, MANY thanks in advance,

Mark

 

 

[seaJane]

14 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

"Ord" for Ordinary Seaman. 

Yes, looks like it to me.

14 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

HMS Vivid at Davenport.  What is the "I" after Vivid?

Devonport. The I is a Roman 1 - up to 4 (IV) VIVID's (shore admin establishments) round the country.

[seaJane]

16 minutes ago, Buffnut453 said:

What's the entry dated 31 Dec 1916?

It might be "Outs"tanding, but don't quote me - I don't know if that was a term used.

 

[Buffnut453]

1 hour ago, seaJane said:

Yes, looks like it to me.

Devonport. The I is a Roman 1 - up to 4 (IV) VIVID's (shore admin establishments) round the country.

 

Hi seaJane.  Thanks for the confirmation about "Ord" - it seemed logical (to me).

 

Appreciate the info about Vivid.  I hadn't realized Vivid had multiple locations...but it makes perfect sense.

 

 

1 hour ago, seaJane said:

It might be "Outs"tanding, but don't quote me - I don't know if that was a term used.

 

 

I wondered the same thing.  Not sure if it was an accepted term....hopefully someone will be along shortly to confirm or refute.

 

Again, appreciate the info and rapid responses.

 

Cheers,
Mark

Edited 7 January , 2018 by Buffnut453

[ARABIS]

The official terms for Ability in Rating were:-

Exceptional, to be written as Ex.

Superior,                                   Supr.

Satisfactory,                             Sat.

Moderate,                                 Mod.

Inferior,                                     Inf.

I think the rating for 31/12/16 is just a badly written Supr.

 

The notation about a new S.C. being written 28 Dec 15 refers to a new Service Certificate being written to replace the one lost when HMS Argyll was wrecked on the Bell Rock.

 

ARABIS.  

[Buffnut453]

8 minutes ago, ARABIS said:

The official terms for Ability in Rating were:-

Exceptional, to be written as Ex.

Superior,                                   Supr.

Satisfactory,                             Sat.

Moderate,                                 Mod.

Inferior,                                     Inf.

I think the rating for 31/12/16 is just a badly written Supr.

 

The notation about a new S.C. being written 28 Dec 15 refers to a new Service Certificate being written to replace the one lost when HMS Argyll was wrecked on the Bell Rock.

 

ARABIS.  

 

Thanks ARABIS.  Looking at the record again, I think you're right about the 31/12/16 entry being Supr. 

 

Appreciate the additional info about the new SC being written.  The whole HMS Argyll story was fascinating to me.

Cheers,
Mark

[horatio2]

1 hour ago, Buffnut453 said:

"G.I."  Is the latter "Gunner Instructor, perhaps?

No, it is the granting (G) of his first Good Conduct Badge after three years VG service.

[Buffnut453]

4 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

No, it is the granting (G) of his first Good Conduct Badge after three years VG service.

 

Hi horatio2.  Thanks for that insight.  There is so much Service-specific detail in these records.  I managed to work out the big muscle-moves (like the ships on which he served) but these smaller details all help to tell the story.  Appreciate your inputs.

 

Cheers,
Mark

[Buffnut453]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 14:21, alf mcm said:

Mark,

  I see from a family tree on Ancestry that Ernest and Sarah had a daughter, Marian, born in 1917. There's a good chance that her birth certificate would show if her father was in the Navy, and may even show his service number.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

 

Thanks for this suggestion, Alf.  I ordered Marian Gamble's birth certificate and the father's occupation is confirmed as "Seaman, HMS Gabriel" which ties in completely with the service record.  The address also tallies with the Absentee Voter List entry I have for him.  Ergo, this is definitely "my" Ernest Gamble and he did enlist under-age, albeit only by about 3 months.

 

Cheers,
Mark

[Buffnut453]

On 05/01/2018 at 20:21, alf mcm said:

Mark,

  I see from a family tree on Ancestry that Ernest and Sarah had a daughter, Marian, born in 1917. There's a good chance that her birth certificate would show if her father was in the Navy, and may even show his service number.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

Alf,

After 5 years (has it really been that long), I realized I never came back to you with the details from Marian's birth certificate.  Her father is listed as Ernest Gamble, a sailor aboard HMS Gabriel, with her mother being Sarah (nee Garner) of Traverse Street, St.Helens.

All the details align with known information about "my" Ernest Gamble and the content of his RN Service Record.  Really appreciate all the help.

Kind regards,
Mark