H Dunn - Centenary of death

[Barney09]

I am visiting Belgium this weekend to pay my respects to my Great Uncle Private 49842, Herbert William Dunn of the Durham Light Infantry. He was killed in action on 16 December 1917 and is now buried in Poellkapelle British War Cemetery. I am staying in Ypres and would like to visit all of the “Must Do/See” locations within a 20 radius of Ypres town. Can anyone provide me with a suitable self-drive itinerary to enable me to make the most of my visit. I have the location of where his body was found between Goudberg Copse and Virile farm. I would also like to see Hellfire Corner, a typical “WW1 trench system, Tyne Cott Cemetery and any other noteworthy locations. Unfortunately, I understand many the local museums close on my day of arrival for the Christmas period! Any ideas, suggestions and maps etc… would be greatly apprieciated.

[keithfazzani]

Have a look at the Long Long Trail, link at the top of the page. There is a day trip to Ypres in there somewhere. I am sure someone wiyh local knowldege will come along  to assist you re closures of museums etc.

[John_Hartley]

Suggest getting a copy of the Holts Battlefield Guide. It has three driving tours of the area, with lots of explanatory detail.

[kenf48]

Acknowledging the recommendations above, especially for Holts Battlefield Guide, given your limited time to prepare  you used to be able to pick up a self drive semi circular  tour at the Cloth Hall for free. The route still had the old enamel signs.

 

Since the Centenary it will cost you six euros for six ‘themed’ routes from the tourist office in Ypres but they are well signposted.  You can also download an app to design your own route.  The app is free if a bit clunky to get t grips with.  Suggest the route ‘The Ypres Salient’

https://www.flandersfields.be/en/inspiration/tourist-car-routes-flanders-fields

 

Ken

[Barney09]

Thanks to everyone who helped me with this...... I visited his grave and also the spot where his body was found....

 

Many thanks..

[Barney09]

[Spree Farm]

Hi 

 

I don't know if this blog is still active. My GGF was killed on the same day as Herbert Dunn on the 16th Dec 1917. He was PTE Wilfred Lomas 53008 10 DLI and I believe  Wilfred was in A Coy and died during light shell fire near Virile Farm along with A Coy CSM Robert Holland who died of would the following day.

 

Strong possibility that Herbert was in B or C coy as an Officers servant and a cook were killed on that day. George Westgarth who was with his brother at Spree Farm along with one other.

 

Love to share information

 

Regards

 

David

[Spree Farm]

Sorry that should have been D not C Coy. The servant and cook may have been killed on the 15th as the war diary is a little bit sketchy around this time and only listed 7 and not the 10 killed. 

[kenf48]

10 hours ago, Spree Farm said:

Love to share information

 

Hello David and welcome to the forum

Barney09 las visited us in March 2019 suggest you make contact using the Personal Messaging system, envelope link top right.

If they have the same email as when registered it should be picked up.

 

Ken

[Spree Farm]

Hi Ken,

 

Thank you, I am very interested in 10 service Bn for obvious reasons and have done much research in this area. I have found the names of over 1600 names of those who served and I still think there are more to find. Is there a forum on 10 DLI or do I need to start one?

 

Family hearsay; there was a letter from the CWGC in the earlier 1920s and said that Wilfred was exhumed and was to be moved to Poellkapelle British War Cemetery. Then he was lost. Do you know if there were records made of where bodies were located. I know that they worked in teams of 12 and were given an area to search that is all.

 

Regards

 

David

[kenf48]

21 hours ago, Spree Farm said:

Hi Ken,

 

Thank you, I am very interested in 10 service Bn for obvious reasons and have done much research in this area. I have found the names of over 1600 names of those who served and I still think there are more to find. Is there a forum on 10 DLI or do I need to start one?

 

 

There is no specific forum here for the DLI though there are many posts concerning that Regiment and other specialist researchers.  We are not, as you mention in your original post a blog.  Though there is a specialist space for those on the forum.I’d suggest you start a separate thread advising members of your interest and perhaps engaging with other researchers.

 

22 hours ago, Spree Farm said:

 

Family hearsay; there was a letter from the CWGC in the earlier 1920s and said that Wilfred was exhumed and was to be moved to Poellkapelle British War Cemetery. Then he was lost. Do you know if there were records made of where bodies were located. I know that they worked in teams of 12 and were given an area to search that is all.

 

Where an identified body was found and reinterred this is recorded on the CWGC Roll of Honour database.  Wilfred is recorded on the Tyne Cot Memorial and therefore has no known grave.  It therefore sounds unlikely, the CWGC Records usually give the map reference, or original cemetery where the body was found.  If you want a definitive answer I suggest you contact them, I understand they are helpful.

 

Ken 

 

 

[Spree Farm]

On 07/01/2020 at 05:50, kenf48 said:

 

There is no specific forum here for the DLI though there are many posts concerning that Regiment and other specialist researchers.  We are not, as you mention in your original post a blog.  Though there is a specialist space for those on the forum.I’d suggest you start a separate thread advising members of your interest and perhaps engaging with other researchers.

 

 

Where an identified body was found and reinterred this is recorded on the CWGC Roll of Honour database.  Wilfred is recorded on the Tyne Cot Memorial and therefore has no known grave.  It therefore sounds unlikely, the CWGC Records usually give the map reference, or original cemetery where the body was found.  If you want a definitive answer I suggest you contact them, I understand they are helpful.

 

Ken 

 

 

Hi Ken,

Sorry for calling the Forum a blog as it wasn't intentional. Yes, we know that Wilfred is mentioned at Tyne Cot Panel 128 to 131 and 162 and 162A. I visited there back in 1989 whilst serving in BAOR. We are fortunate in one way that we have copies of all his military records that survived in the burnt records at Kew. We also have his army pay book, watch, wallet and handkerchief that were return to my GGM in 1922. We were surprise when we wrote to Kew back in the 1980s to see if his records had survived and they had, we were even more surprised when we found out that he was mentioned only at Tyne Cot as up to that point the family had only ever mentioned Poelcappelle.

 

These are the men who died from the Battalion during December 1917 and can be placed with a degree of certainty at the following locations, the dates are when they were reported wounded.

 

'202497'   JENKINSON          TYNE COT MEMORIAL                                   Virile

'245378'   BELL                     TYNE COT MEMORIAL                                    Virile

'245407'   MALONEY            TYNE COT MEMORIAL                                    Virile

'376548'   SHAW                  POELCAPELLE BRITISH CEMETERY              Virile

'32088'     COATES               OXFORD ROAD CEMETERY                           Spree

'37271'     WARWICK           OXFORD ROAD CEMETERY                            Spree

'49842'     DUNN                  POELCAPELLE BRITISH CEMETERY              Virile

'53008'     LOMAS                 TYNE COT MEMORIAL                                     Spree/ Virile?

'44228'     WESTGARTH       TYNE COT MEMORIAL                                     Spree

12583'      HOLLAND             NINE ELMS BRITISH CEMETERY                   Spree Wounds 16/12/1917

                 LEVESON              TYNE COT MEMORIAL                                   Virile

                 HERRIES               NINE ELMS BRITISH CEMETERY                  Wounds at Virile 18/12/1917

'28356'     HODGSON           POELCAPELLE BRITISH CEMETERY              Virile

 

The following had wounds sustained earlier and cannot be certain they were at the front during this period.

'12545'     BRADLEY            NEW SILKSWORTH (ST. LEONARD)                Wounds 14/08/1915

'43329'     MORRIS               LIJSSENTHOEK MILITARY CEMETERY           Wounds 01/11/1917

'33307'     MILLING               TYNE COT CEMETERY                                     Wounds 27/09/1917

376250'    STAFFORD           TYNE COT MEMORIAL                                     Wounds 01/11/1917

'11738'     CHEESMAN         LIJSSENTHOEK MILITARY CEMETERY            Wounds 27/09/1917

 

I have written to the CWGC to see if they have copies of exhumation reports for this period and these areas, if they have then, maybe just maybe it might be possible to match exhumation to cemeteries through body descriptions unit en-signature and rank. At least that maybe something trying to achieve.

 

One question if I may:  Communication Trench No 6. Do you know the route to took from Spree Farm to Virile Farm?

 

Regards

 

David

Edited 8 January , 2020 by Spree Farm
more information found

[kenf48]

13 hours ago, Spree Farm said:

Communication Trench No 6. Do you know the route to took from Spree Farm to Virile Farm?

 

I don't know but a pointer for your research the 43rd Brigade Diary shows Brigade Order 47 for relief on the night of the 15th/16th December used maps 28 NE & 28 NW & 20 SE

 

They were taking over a section of the line"W.25.c.2.1. on the Right to about V.29.a 5.6."

The rendezvous point for the 10th D.L.I. was 'Junction of track just South of Kronprintz D.3.c.5.2.' Route No 6 Track

If you subscribe to Ancestry the Op Order is here

 

The Map can be found on the NLS site https://maps.nls.uk/view/101464639

Spree Farm is in Square C18 

 

Virile Trench is on map 20 SE (apparently) V 29 I can't see it, but it is the end of the line mentioned in the OP order.  I can't reference Virile Farm.

https://maps.nls.uk/view/101464627

 

You can overlay the maps on the NLS site from the home page with present day Google maps.

 

 

I assume you know how to read a trench map, if not there is guidance on the LLT 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battlefields/how-to-read-a-british-trench-map/

 

btw you may attract more interest from D.L.I. researchers if you start a separate thread with the regiment in the title. 

 

Ken

 

[WhiteStarLine]

5 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 I can't reference Virile Farm.

I've highlighted Ken's points (W.25.c.2.1. on the Right to about V.29.a 5.6) and there is a map pin on Virile Farm just NW of Virtue Farm - click on the image to enlarge.

preview.tmapper.com

[kenf48]

Thanks 

 

Ken 

[Spree Farm]

Thanks for the information.

 

I have started a new Forum 10th Durham Light Infantry

 

On a note of the original Forum - Private H W Dunn and Private J W Shaw were originally buried at map reference 20.V.29.B.5.5. 

[WhiteStarLine]

Hence your interest in Virile Farm. The roof of Virile Farm is visible along the road (yellow highlight) and the location of the original burials is in the field to the half-right of the observer's viewpoint.

 

 

 

[Spree Farm]

Thanks, There was a third soldier recovered from that site - unknown. At  POELCAPELLE BRITISH CEMETERY Private H W Dunn and Private J W Shaw graves XII. D. 18. and XII. D.19. 

The unknown is grave XII. D 17. I believe that there is a strong possibility that this is also a member of the 10th DLI. If so then this is either Maloney, Stafford, Bell, Jenkinson or Lomas. The rest I can account for.