Royal Welsh Fusilier 2nd Lt. 8 May 1916

[laughton]

Need some help from someone that has knowledge of this regiment.

 

There is a 2nd Lt. RWF in Plot 7 Row F Grave 1 of the Cabaret Rouge British Cemetery. The GRRF was changed to UBO. The man above is also an Officer, dead the same date. They were in the FOURMES German Cemetery at 36.O.31.d.8.2.

 

The CWGC from 1 January 1916 to 15 May 1916 lists seven (7) in France, two of which (Taggart & Osborne-Jones) are on the Loos Memorial for the 15th Battalion, coincidentally died on 8 May 1915 1916 - an exact match to the COG-BR. 

 

They are not listed by name or rank in the April or May war diary, but at the top of the April sheet it says two Officers had died of wounds?

 

I did not find either of the 2nd Lts. in the ICRC database.

 

It has to be the two officers of the 15th Battalion on the Loos Memorial??

 

Added these unit affiliations and links for clarification on 15 January 2018:

• Second Lieutenant Herbert Taggart, 11th B., attd. 15th Ban.
• Second Lieutenant Noel Osborne-Jones, 15th Bn.

 

Edited 14 April , 2018 by laughton
(1) wrong grave reference, later fixed typos (2) added affiliations for the officers and CWGC links 15/01/2018 (3) 1916 not 1915

[LarsA]

Taggart and Osborne-Jones were killed during a raid of the German trenches this night.

 

the "Regimental Records" notes it took place in the Laventie sector, nothing more specific.

 

Lars

 

 

[LarsA]

The raid is further mentioned in the 38th Divisional histoty, and is also described in Wyn Griffiths "Up to Mametz", where a note in the latest edition says that the bodies of Osborne-Jones and Taggart remained in german hands.

 

Lars

The raid is further mentioned in the 38th Divisional histoty, and is also described in Wyn Griffiths "Up to Mametz", where a note in the latest edition says that the bodies of Osborne-Jones and Taggart remained in german hands.

 

Lars

[LarsA]

The 15th RWF had four ORkilled or DOW on this day. Three have known graves, one is on the Loos Memorial, Pte Lionel Grove.

 

I'd say its a strong possibility it could be him in the grave adjacent to the two officers.

 

Lars

 

 

 

 

[laughton]

Thanks, that is a great help. Odd that I have not yet found it in the war diary  - but I am new to the British War Diaries on Ancestry.ca!

 

Reading on, I did find Operation Order 14 by Major Hodson and it says that Captain Own will be assisted by 2nd Lieut N. O. Jones (Right Party), 2nd Lieut H Taggart (Left Party) and 2nd Lt. D. F. Ingledon (119th Bde RFA) .... raid on trenches at 36.N.14.a.7.4 at midnight 7/8th May 1916.

 

Going further I found a NARRATIVE OF RAID:

 

Taggart and Jones entered the enemy trench at 1:50 am, no mention of their death.

 

Then a NOTES ON THE RAID:

 

Raiding party was subject to rifle fire from the support trenches, mostly high. Heavy MG fire when they were retiring - 6 guns counted. The first casualty to the RFW was at 2:10 was a slight flesh wound (Own I think - it says O.C. Raid). During the withdrawal, MG fire from the flanks and rifle fire from a support trench. Taggart was wounded in the back, Owen carried him across the ditch. Taggart lost use of his legs and was left behind - four search parties failed to find him. Jones was seen to fall as he stood on  the enemy parapet directing the retirement of his party. Both were reported "Wounded and MIssing".

 

It would appear that the two officers in 7.F.1 and 7.D.4 are Taggart and Jones. As you noted. Pte. Lionel Grove #22034 is probably in 7.D.3, same date.

 

Looks to me like we have just identified three (3) British Unknowns. It would be good if we could get the German records, regardless, the evidence is compelling.

 

• 7.D.3 Special Memorial D - Believed to be Private Lionel Grove
• 7.D.4 Special Memorial C - Buried near this spot, 2nd Lt. Osborne-Jones
• 7.F.1 Special Memorial C -Buried near this spot, 2nd Lt. Taggart

 

For "Special Memorials C" the CWGC puts them in alphabetic order so Osborne-Jones before Taggart.

 

Edited 5 December , 2017 by laughton

[LarsA]

If you don't mind, would it be OK if I alerted the regimental historians to your observations?

 

Jonathon Riley, formerly Colonel of the RWF, takes a great interest in the history of the RWF and the 15th Btn.

 

kind regards,

 

Lars

[laughton]

AOK

[LarsA]

Many thanks!

 

Enclose photos of Osborne-Jones and Taggart. Taggart the clearer pic.

 

Lars

 

 

[laughton]

I am waiting to see if Lars can retrieve some details from General Riley, who I see was responsible for updating the book:

 

Up to Mametz and Beyond

 

That might have additional information that can either solidify this case, or render it insufficient for submission to the CWGC.

 

In the meantime, here are the GRRF documents that go along with the three (3) reported graves:

 

http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc1976121.JPG

 

http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc1976123.JPG

 

If anyone has additional information on the FOURNES GERMAN CEMETERY (TMC: 36.O.31.d.8.2) that would be beneficial as well. There are a number of pages of the Cabaret-Rouge British Cemetery with remains concentrated from that location (starting here at 2113057 and ending at 2113068). Are there German records available? If this is the German Military Cemetery, Fournes-en-Weppes, then there is a link to Fromelles and even to Hitler's time there as a Corporal. Unlike many of the CWGC historical reports for their cemeteries, there are no details on the smaller cemeteries that were concentrated into the Cabaret-Rouge British Cemetery.

 

 

[HertsHistorian]

I think there’s is definitely a case to be made for the three men. The CWGC indicates they are the only officers commemorated in France with no known grave in the period 5-11 May 1916. There are two other Other Ranks missing on 8 May and commemorated on the Loos Memorial - both men of the Royal Munster Fusiliers.

 

The service records of 2/Lieutenants Taggart and Osbourne-Jones make clear quite how deeply affected their families were by their loss. Within is a great deal of correspondence between them and various members of 15/Royal Welsh Fusiliers and the War Office about the fate of the two men.

 

Broadly speaking the accounts (some of which are dismissed by a contemporary investigating officer as uniformed speculation) agree that both officers were wounded towards the end of the raid. Osbourne-Jones was seen on the enemy parapet before being hit and falling back into the trench, whilst Taggart was wounded and rendered immobile by a bullet through his back. He lay in a disused trench in no man’s land for the rest of the next day before, it is claimed, he was seen to be picked up by a German patrol. The suggestion is both men were captured (at the very least) severely wounded. I will post the various accounts once I’ve sorted through them if they would be of interest.

 

With reference to the view from the other side of the hill, the 15/Royal Welsh Fusiliers appear to have raided the 6^th Kompanie of the 16^th Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment (List Regiment) commanded by Leutnant der Reserve Glunk.

 

• An account (pp.208-9) for someone whose ability to read gothic script in German (!) is better than mine can be found in the regimental history at this link: http://www.fschuppisser.ch/kuk/07bayinf.pdf It appears to suggest they took in two wounded and three dead British soldiers.

 

How reliable it is I’m unsure – it was written in the early 1930s by an author, Fritz Wiedemann, who was a high-ranking Nazi apparatchik (the List Regiment being that in which Adolf Hitler served).

 

I gather the Bavarian archives hold the records of the regiment and these go into great detail. It might be worth seeing if anyone in that part of the world is able to get eyes on the original reports which might confirm whether or not three men captured during the raid were subsequently buried at Fournes? Might it be there was a German field hospital in that locality?

 

The question that the CWGC may need answered is why these three men ended up buried in Fournes when 22038 Pte Stanley Hood, who also fell in the raid, was originally buried in Haubourdin Communal Cemetery German Extension before being concentrated to Cabaret Rouge. 

 

Best wishes,

Alex

 

Edited 29 December , 2017 by HertsHistorian

[laughton]

15 hours ago, HertsHistorian said:

The question that the CWGC may need answered is why these three men ended up buried in Fournes when 22038 Pte Stanley Hood, who also fell in the raid, was originally buried in Haubourdin Communal Cemetery German Extension before being concentrated to Cabaret Rouge. 

 

Great information - I see there are many experts that translate German Gothic Script but that means hiring a body ..... unless we have a volunteer?

 

As to the question above, perhaps the answer is in the CWGC cemetery records, which states as follows:

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/34301/haubourdin-communal-cemetery/

 

Quote

HAUBOURDIN COMMUNAL CEMETERY

History Information

The region was held by the Germans from October, 1914, to October, 1918, and the Communal Cemetery, in the South-East part of the town, was used and extended by German Field Hospitals. The GERMAN EXTENSION, with nearly 1,000 graves, is permanent; 44 British graves have been removed from it to Cabaret-Rouge British Cemetery, Souchez, and eleven (all of 1914) from the Communal Cemetery itself to Laventie Military Cemetery.

 

That would suggest that Private Hood was wounded and he went in a different direction than the officers that were dead. Interesting to note that there is one Lieutenant still in the communal cemetery because he is buried under the French memorial.  There is a page on his records with that information:

 

 

Quote

 I will post the various accounts once I’ve sorted through them if they would be of interest.

 

Yes please!

Edited 30 December , 2017 by laughton

[HertsHistorian]

Please find attached the account of Cpl Bloor DCM in 2/Lt Taggart's file.

 

Alex

[HertsHistorian]

Other various accounts suggesting Osbourne-Jones and Taggart were captured. I note the reference to Pte Gladden in Pte Spencer's account - Pte Gladden was definitely captured during the raid - attempts to source information through him concerning the missing officers whilst he was in captivity drew a blank.

 

Alex

 

Edited 14 January , 2018 by HertsHistorian

[HertsHistorian]

Various other accounts suggesting the two men were seriously wounded and possibly captured alive. It doesn't appear however, that investigating authorities at the time placed much credence in the reliability in the story of the captured German soldier divulging said information.

 

Alex

 

 

[Muerrisch]

We need to thank Herts Historian for his massive contribution, which illustrates how thorough the authorities were in pursuing evidence.

[laughton]

Most certainly - a massive contribution! Well done Alex!!

 

I went through them to sort out which are primary facts versus secondary information and to put them in order. I will return to this later to see where we stand.

 

I have yet to see if we can place Pte. Lionel Groves into this sequence.

 

I will also check into what they have at the I.C.R.C. about Private Gladden and why he was never interviewed when he was released? This appears to be the appropriate file: Pte. George Henry Gladden. An initial review does not add any relevant information.

 

Source of Report (in chronological order)	Details in Report (*) refers to my comment
Captain Coronway Owen 15th Bn. R.W.F.   (This is in the report below from Lieut. Col, Bell but appears to be written immediately after the raid, as it refers to “yesterday”.)	Reports that their son (2nd Lt. Taggart) was seriously wounded in the back in No Man’s Land after participating in the raid. Taggart was clear of the enemy trenches and was returning to Owen’s assistance when he was shot in the back and fell. Owen reports he carried Taggart some distance over a ditch and remained with him until light, at which time he sought further help. His Serjeant (*) assisted him but was wounded. Four search parties failed to find Taggart. The Germans secured Taggart and Owen believes and hopes that Taggart is alive. He states “so far as we know, though seriously wounded, he is still alive but a prisoner”.   * I believe he is referring to Serjeant Jones (see below).
Lieut. Col. N. C. Bell Officer Commanding 15th Battalion R.W.F. 13 May 1916   (letter to the parents of Second Lieutenant Taggart)	Their son was severely wounded and is a POW. 2nd Lieut. Taggart was retiring from the German trenches when he saw Capt. Owen (the Raid Leader) bring in a wounded man. Taggart went to assist and was hit as soon as he reached Owen. Owen and a Serjeant (Jones) carried Taggart some distance and then Owen sent Jones for more assistance. Jones was hit. Owen carried Taggart across a bridge over a ditch and placed him in a covered position. Capt. Owen returned to his men. Four patrols sent out failed to reach Taggart. Donohue (* see later Donoghue) found Taggart when he was returning later, as he had got left out after the raid. He returned to the lines and reported to Bell that he had seen a German Officer point out Taggart, who was close to their parapet and a long way from the British trenches. A patrol went out after dark, to that spot, and found Taggart had been removed.
Statement of Pte. Ingman #21583 St. John’s Hospital, Etaples 8 June 1916 at top of page   (unsure if the that is the date of the report from the source or the date of the report that contains the informants reports)	Taggart and Osborne-Jones went over with bombing party. Both wounded and taken prisoner. He saw the man who came back (*). They should check with Donoghue. Pte. Ingman got information from his officer (Lt. Frost) that a German POW (captured a week later) told them Taggart and Osborne-Jones were POWs, both wounded, one severely. He believed, but not certain, that Osborne-Jones was the more seriously wounded man.   * I believe this is Pte. John Henry Donoghue #21660, 13th Bn. R.W.F. KIA 11 July 1916 (on Thiepval Memorial – CWGC link)
Pte. Fred Bouchier #19821 15th Bn. R.W.F. 8 June 1916 at top of page (see note above)	On sentry post duty at Duxbills near Laventie on 8 May 1916. Warned of 50 men going over in bombing party at about 11 pm under Taggart, Osborne-Jones and Owen (Captain). About 37 came back at 1:30 am. Search party sent out and returned at 2:30 am without Taggart, who was left lying badly wounded 30 yards from German trenches. One of the men (*) came across Taggart and stayed with him all day. That man came back at 3:30 pm (May 8th) to get food for Taggart. Officer (?) sent out search party at 9 pm and found that Germans had already taken Taggart.   (*) At the end of this report it says that someone later found out from Pte. Boucher that the man that that stayed with Taggart was Cpl. Bloor (see subsequent report from Sgt. Bloor).
Statement of Pte. Wm. Lloyd’#19166 16th R.W.F. 2ns Southern General Hospital 8 June 1916 at top of page (see note above)	He was a machine gun bearer (16th Bn.) covering the attack of the bombing party (15th Bn.). Got to the German wire that had been previously cut. Saw Osborne-Jones on the German parapet firing his revolver into the trench. He was shot and fell behind (back). Taggart was hit about the same time. Lloyd was lying in a shell hole in No Man’s Land and saw the Germans pick up Osborne-Jones and put him on a stretcher. The Germans returned later and one of the German’s carried him out on his back. A captured German POW reported 16 days later that both officers were alive then.   * Later reports (see below) suggest that Pte. Lloyd was not in No Man’s Land at the time of the raid and that his statement is based on rumours at that time. Obviously there was something about Lloyd’s report that conflicted with the others.
Statement of 2nd Lieut. W. C. Jones 15th Bn. R.W.F. Guy’s Hospital, London 30 June 1916   (appears to be written by whomever took the statement)	The informant is 2nd Lieut. W. C. Jones who was in charge of the lines from which the raid took place, which would mean that he was not out on the raid. Not to be confused with 2nd Lieut. Noel Osborne-Jones, who was on the raid.   2nd Lieut. Taggard (Taggart) wounded close to enemy lines and taken prisoner. Raid was about 1 am on Sunday 7 May 1916 (*). Informant (Jones) believes that Taggart is dead. He has a report from one of the men who got back that Taggart was seriously wounded in the back.   *The calendar for 1916 shows Sunday was May 7th, so he is referring to the raid in the early morning hours of May 8th.
Pte. A. Saunders #22560 Etaples, 10 July 1916	Saunders refers to “Jones” which I have changed to “Osborne-Jones” so it is not confused with the report of “W. C. Jones”.   His report appears to be about both Taggart and Jones (Osborne-Jones). 64 men went out on the raid at Levanti. Three men were taken prisoner (Osborne-Jones, Taggart and Gladden *). Pte. Langdon reported Osborne-Jones and Taggart taken prisoner but cannot say if dead or alive. He (Langdon?) saw Jones on the parapet firing rapidly with a revolver in each hand. He saw him heave forward and fall into the trench, apparently shot dead. Gladden’s people have heard from his as a prisoner but nothing about Jones or Taggart.   * See subsequent reports. Enquiry sent to Germany to see if Pte. Gladden #27362, captured at the time of the raid, can provide additional information. No answer at the time of the report.
Corp. Rowley #21839 S.S. St. David, Boulogne 13 July 1916	Taggart was in the same bombing raid as Jones. He was left in a trench between the British and German lines by Donaghue (Donoghue). Thinks Donoghue says he (Taggart) was wounded in the back but was alive. They (patrols) could not find Taggart but it was easy for the Germans as there was a line of willows from their line to ours.   This would appear to be a report based on second-hand information. I do not know the link of Cpl. Rowley to the raiding party.
Statement of Pte. G. Spencer 15th R.W.F. Holt Auxiliary Hospital 27 July 1916	Bombing party in early May (1916) at about 2 am at Neuve Chapelle front. Donoghue (* see above) came to trench next day at about 7 pm from No Man’s Land, and reported he had been with Taggart and that Taggart was seriously wounded. Donoghue saw Germans take Osborne-Jones and Gladden, treating them very carefully. German carried Taggart across his back.
War Office Form Request To Royal Welsh Fusiliers Deport, Wrexham Received 29-31 December 1916 Reference to Informants Report, which would be, Pte. W. Lloyd #19166 of the 16th Bn. R.W.F.	Secretary of War requesting information from the Royal Welsh Fusiliers Depot in Wrexham.   This would appear to be the request that started the investigation as to the accuracy of the report made by Pte. W. Lloyd.
Major-General Deputy Adjutant General G.H.Q. 3rd Echelon Was 15th Bn. Adjutant at time of the raid on 7-8 May 1916. To Secretary War Office Regarding Casualty Report C.2 Casualties 104340 Response to letter of 9 January 1917 Letter dated 13 February 1917 Report of Officer Commanding 15th Bn. R.W.F.	This soldier (whoever made the report believed to be based on rumours?) was not in “No Man’s Land” during the raid. Taggart was no wounded until the raid was over. Taggart left in ditch after 3 recovery attempts failed. Lay in ditch until evening 8 May 1916 and was captured by enemy. Wounded man (*) now KIA remained with Taggart but left him at 6 am and crawled back to lines. German prisoner captured had no knowledge of the raid. The raid began at 1:50 am with patrols to 3:30 am. Osborne-Jones taken into German trenches about 4 am (night of 7th-8th May). Taggart was taken into German trenches about 8:30 pm next day (8th May). No news of either officer (Taggart or Osborne-Jones). Soldier’s statement is believed to be based on rumours at the time.   * Looks as if the wounded man, as referenced at end of letter, was Pte. W. Lloyd #19166 of the 16th Bn. R.W.F. (not 15th Bn.) evacuated wounded to England 15 May 1917. *that cannot be correct – must be Donoghue, as he was the man subsequently killed.
Author Unknown Report of Officer Commanding 15th Bn. R.W.F. 6 April 1917 Regarding Casualty Report C.2 Casualties 104340	(very similar to the report above) Taggart not wounded until operation was over and remained lying in the ditch until the following evening. Three attempts to rescue Taggart failed. Capture by enemy before patrols could recover him. Wounded man (Donoghue?) now KIA remained with Taggart but left him at 6 am and crawled back to lines. German prisoner captured had no knowledge of the raid. The raid began at 1:50 am with patrols to 3:30 am. Osborne-Jones taken into German trenches about 4 am (night of 7th-8th May). Taggart was taken into German trenches about 8:30 pm next day (8th May). Enquiry sent to Germany to see if Pte. Gladden #27362, captured at the time of the raid, can provide additional information. No answer at the time of the report.
Sgt. D. W. Bloor 4th London General Hospital 12 August 1917 To Mrs. Foster 2nd Lt. Taggart’s Sister   Sgt. Bloor made enquiries of the battalion so this is not first-hand information.	Believes that Taggard is alive and a POW, based on information through the American Embassy.   Taggart was with Osborne-Jones and was hit when withdrawing after the attack, 30 yards from German trenches. Captain (Owen?) was with Taggart. Bloor went out to look for Taggart and returned before daylight. It was “believed” Taggart was hit in the back.   A search party the following night did not find Taggart or Osborne-Jones.

Edited 15 January , 2018 by laughton
corrections

[laughton]

I am back to reviewing where we go with this case. First matter on the agenda, thanks to Luc's reminder, is to check if there are any Royal West Fusiliers as the "Secondary Regiment". The CWGC database reveals the following:

• 100 listed as that being the secondary regiment (link)
• 26 of those men were in the British Army and lost in France (link)
• 1 of the men was lost in May-June 1916 (link)
• none of the men are missing or dead on 8 May 1916 (link)

 

Second on the list is a check to make sure the three men suspected of being from the Royal West Fusiliers are the only candidates from that time and location. We know that two (2) are Officers but we do not know if the third was an OR, NCO or OFFICER, as it only says "UBS", based on "clothing, cross and certified report".

 

Of the seven (7) 2nd Lieutenants reported deceased in May-June 1916, only two (2) as listed on the Loos Memorial (link). There are no missing Majors, Captains or Lieutenants during this period, leaving only the two 2nd Lieutenants (Noel Osborne-Jones, Herbert Taggart) and one Private (Lionel Grove) as unknowns in the list of eleven fatalities (link).

 

If we play the Devil's Advocate, I believe the challenges would be:

1. It would be agreed that there was an Unknown Second Lieutenant of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers in Grave 7.F.1 of the Cabaret-Rouge British Cemetery, whose date of death was 8 May 1916, but it would not be possible to tell whether it was Osborne-Jones or Taggart. I agree.
    
2. It would be agreed that there is an Unknown British Officer in Grave 7.D.4 of the same cemetery, dead on the same date, but there was no evidence provided that he was an Officer of the Royal West Fusliers. There are six (6) Second Lieutenants reported deceased on 8 May 1916 and only the two (2) named are missing and on the Loos Memorial (link). There is one (1) Lieutenant, however he has a known burial location (link). There are no other Officers of any of the Commonwealth Forces deceased and missing on that date (link). That confirms that they are both Officers of the Royal West Fusiliers.
    
3. It would be agreed that it is "likely" that the third unknown if Private Lionel Grove, as he is from the same regiment and dead on the same date (link). It is also possible that the other UNKNOWN is either Private Hickson or Private Twohig of the 9th (Service) Battalion, Royal Munster Fusiliers, shown on that list. That is 16th (Irish) Division, 48th Brigade (LLT link). The war diary of that date (page 51 of 58), places the 9th RMF near Hulluch at 36c.H.13.b.5.5 (GPS 50.4850, 2.8152), some 6,500 yards north of Lens. The raid where the Royal Welsh Fusiliers Officers were killed on that date was at 36.N.14.a.7.4 (GPS 50.6152, 2.8186). The separation distance between the two locations is more than 14 kilometers on a direct north-south route. There are no records in the ICRC database suggesting that the RMF men may have been taken prisoner, thus making it highly unlikely that their remains would be found 14 kilometers from where they were killed. That means the remains are those of Private Lionel Grove in Grave 7.D.3.
    
4. There is one (1) other member of the Royal West Fusiliers (Private Stanley Hood) killed on that date and buried in the Cabaret-Rouge British Cemetery. His remains were concentrated from the Haubourdin German Cemetery Extension at 36.P.21.b.9.4 (link), whereas the two Officers were concentrated from the Fournes German Cemetery Extension at 36.O.31.d.8.2 (link). Fournes German Cemetery is approximately 9,000 yards southwest of the Haubourdin German Cemetery Extension (map link).
    
5. There is not sufficient information available at this time to tell if graves 7.D.4 and 7.F.1 are close enough together to place a "Special Memorial C" (Buried near this spot), with the alphabetic listing of names (site schematic). I will see if I can find a more detailed plan or photograph. We do know that the three men were buried beside each other when in the Fournes German Cemetery.

If anyone else has any questions, comments or suggestions, I would appreciate hearing from you at this time.

Edited 11 May , 2018 by laughton
fixed incorrect CWGC link

[LarsA]

The german history in gothic (fraktur) says that the battalion brought in two wounded and three dead englishmen. Three dead are buried elsewhere, three unkowns side by side in Fournes.

 

ATB,

 

Lars

 

 

Edited 6 May , 2018 by LarsA

[laughton]

Can you clarify? 2+3 = 5 then 3+3=6?

Do we know which men were in which group?

 

If we can find where he 3 dead were buried that would be useful. Do they name them?

 

It is good they say the three unknowns were buried in Fournes, as that means they all arrived at the same time and did not come from any of the RMF men to the north.

 

It would help if we had the gothic text and the corresponding translation for the report, if we go to that stage.

 

FASCINATING! Thanks!!

[LarsA]

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?regiment=Royal%2BWelsh%2BFusiliers&war=1&dateFrom=08-05-1916&dateTo=08-05-1916

 

Pte E G Jones, buried in Merville. Could have been wounded before this date, and not a candidate.

 

Pte Butler, 8th Battalion, Kirkee memorial in India and not a candidate.

 

Pte S Hood, buried in Cabaret Rouge, and reinterred from Haubordin. This is 9 km away from Fournes, which is not inconsistent with a wounded man being transported back and dying later. See attached file.

 

Pte Ivor Jones, buried in RUE-DU-BACQUEROT (13TH LONDON) GRAVEYARD, Laventie. Obviously not in german hands.

 

other three are Pte Grove, and 2/Lts Taggart and Osborne-Jones.

 

add to this Pte Gladden, shot in the upper leg and later repatriated - it seems the five dead and wounded brought in by the germans are likely Taggart, Osborne-Jones, Grove, Hood and Gladden. Gladden survived.

 

2 wounded, three dead. One wounded died later, Hood.

 

Lars

 

 

[LarsA]

The gernan text only says that two wounded and three dead english were brought in.

 

The fact about three dead buried next to each other in Fournes is from the burial report linked above in the thread.

 

Lars

[LarsA]

[laughton]

I am learning know to expect the unexpected! It turns out that there are also four (4) Privates that have a date of death of 8 May 1916 that are listed on the Thiepval Memorial. Here is what the CWGC says about that memorial, as I had always taken it as the memorial for the Battle of the Somme after July 1, 1916 and prior top March 20, 1918.

 

Quote

The Thiepval Memorial, the Memorial to the Missing of the Somme, bears the names of more than 72,000 officers and men of the United Kingdom and South African forces who died in the Somme sector before 20 March 1918 and have no known grave. Over 90% of those commemorated died between July and November 1916.

 

Obviously this new search caught a group in the 10% category who were not killed between July and November 1916. Note that this extract has the new column "i.d." that has appeared since the CWGC adjusted the download results to allow it to show the secondary regiment (see this post).

 

id	surname	initials	rank	regiment	unit	#	memorial
731811	HICKSON	W	Private	Royal Munster Fusiliers	9th Bn.	'1697'	LOOS MEMORIAL
1771136	TWOHIG	E	Private	Royal Munster Fusiliers	9th Bn.	'1097'	LOOS MEMORIAL
1764343	GROVE	L	Private	Royal Welsh Fusiliers	15th Bn.	'22034'	LOOS MEMORIAL
1766097	OSBORNE-JONES	N	Second Lieutenant	Royal Welsh Fusiliers	15th Bn.		LOOS MEMORIAL
1770287	TAGGART	H	Second Lieutenant	Royal Welsh Fusiliers	11th Bn., attd. 15th Bn.		LOOS MEMORIAL
759149	COOMBS	W H	Private	Dorsetshire Regiment	1st Bn.	'10673'	THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
759916	COWLEY	J W	Private	Leicestershire Regiment	1st/5th Bn.	'2560'	THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
751125	FANTHAM	W	Private	Leicestershire Regiment	1st/5th Bn.	'2162'	THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
75228530	FOX	J	Private	Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers	9th Bn.	'11295'	THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

 

Now to check the war diaries for these new entries into the "candidates list":

 

1st Bn., Dorsetshire Regiment - 14th Brigade, 32nd Division (page 92 of 429)

They are at Bouzincourt in the Thiepval Sector, which places them at 57d.W.7, so well out of the area and thus the man is not a candidate.

 

1st/5th Bn., Leicestershire Regiment - 138th Brigade, 46th (North Midland) Division (page 88 of 515)

They had been billeted at Neuville-St. Vaast and were at Mont St. Eloy at 51c.N.2, so also out of the area. There is no indication of the cause of death for these two casualties. It appears from looking back into April 1916 that they were being used as labour to help French miners, which they were doing until 7 May 1916. Perhaps an accidental or ancillary death?
 

9th (Service) Bn. Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers - 109th Brigade, 36th (Ulster) Division (page 31 of 258)

There was a raid in the area of Martinsart Wood, placing them at 57d.W.3, well out of the area for the candidates. There is extensive detail on the raid over the period of the two days of 7th and 8th May 1916. There is mention of a Private being badly wounded shortly after midnight (page 35 of 358) but there were a number killed. Of the twenty three (23) reported deaths for the raid (CWGC link), only Private Fox is listed on the Thiepval Memorial. The same war diary page refers to a subsequent group of 22 wounded and then refers directly to the disappearance of Private John Fox. It was suspected that he had been "blown away" by a shell. He is not listed in the database of the I.C.R.C. (search link).

 

They had to be checked, but none of them are candidates.

[laughton]

I have uploaded a PDF of my first draft of the report on this case. If anyone wishes to review this and provide comment, that would be appreciated.

 

http://www.mediafire.com/file/7hti7fp3nicb8hv/Pte_Grove_and_2nd_Lts_Taggart_and_Osborne-Jones_Cabaret-Rouge_British_Cemetery_7.D.3%2C_7.D.4%2C_7.F.1.pdf

 

If you participated in the research for this case and wish to have your name and affiliation so noted in the report, please send me a PM with the details.

 

Thanks,

Richard

[laughton]

Thanks to Mel, the Royal West Fusiliers have now been amalgamated with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. They often say  you read what you want to see not what is there. I now must go to make sure my Royal West Surrey Regiment has not turned into the Royal Welsh Surrey Regiment. Canadians!!