Mistake in medal card & roll?

[PaddyO]

Hi,

 

319 Andrew Collins of 5th Bn Royal Irish Regiment enlisted 17/08/14 and later served in Royal Irish Fusiliers (as 26499) and Royal Engineers (as 234459 and later WR/40657). 

He has two cards for his medals.  On his Medal Index Card which includes his Irish regiments and also the Medal Roll entry for the 14/15 Star it states he earns this award for entering theatre 2(a) on 24/07/15.

Andrew is my great great Uncle and is believed to have served in Gallipoli with his brother Edmond - this soldier's medal card states 2(b) & 08/07/15 which is what I would expect to see on Andrew's card given the history of the 5th Battalion.

So two points puzzle me here. Firstly 2(a) is Balkans - the 10th Division didn't go there until after leaving Gallipoli in October. Secondly the date of 24th July - I can't reconcile this date with the Battalion's history; they were already in Mudros by then awaiting landing at Suvla. They set sail from Liverpool on the 7th July. Is it possible the 2(a) is a clerical error (are these common in such records?) and that with regards to the date of the 24th,  Andrew followed on a later transport for some reason (e.g. he was not fit to travel when the battalion left)?

I haven't been able to locate his service record. His SWB entry does confirm he served overseas but obviously doesn't specify where or when.

Any thoughts would be most welcome.

 

Edited 17 November , 2017 by PaddyO

[Gardenerbill]

Hi Paddy,

I think it is just a mistake, according to the Long Long Trail

2 Balkan Theatre
a. Greek Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria
b. Gallipoli and Aegean Islands

 

So A on Andrews card with a date of 24-7-15 is incorrect for Greek Macedonia, 10th Irish Division moved to Salonika in October 1915

Whereas Edmonds medal card with a B and a date of 8-7-15 is correct for Gallipoli.

 

 

Edited 18 November , 2017 by Gardenerbill

[PaddyO]

Thanks very much. I wonder where they plucked 24th July from though?!

[Gardenerbill]

Have you got the 5th RIR war diary? They often record arrival of drafts of reinforcements, you could see if anything is recorded around the 24th July.

Edited 19 November , 2017 by Gardenerbill

[PaddyO]

Thanks, yes I'd had a read but nothing obvious pops up - in any case he was one of the first to join the battalion (as evidenced in his number) and this was their first action (they landed at Suvla on 7th August) so it seems logical he'd have gone out with the main force like his brother.

I can only surmise whoever recorded these details wasn't paying attention.

Thanks again.

[kenf48]

I think you’re being a bit harsh on the clerks completing the Rolls;),which was a Herculean task, especially for soldiers who qualified for the medal with a different Regiment.They had over a year to choose from for the qualifying period for the medal.  He certainly did go with the main body as they were in Mudros that day.  I doubt they expected the entries would be pored ove 100 years later.  

 

The Rolls were probably completed from the Statement of Services, therefore transcription errors frequently occurred and these are especially noticeable in the Dardanelles Campaign.  A common error is the date of embarkation is shown, so if you are able to browse the 14-15 Star Rolls for th Royal Irish Regiment  you will see a number of entries where the checking officer has deleted 8-7-15 and inserted 22-7-15.e.g. 662 Evill and the three entries below.  This was the date the HQ Coy, B C and D coys disembarked at Mudros from the HMT Transylvania, A Coy arrived on the 19th on the Mauretania. 

The Transport did not embark with the main body.  The diary notes a Muster Parade on the 24th July which seems quite signicant, any Roll completed on that parade on that day may have been used by the clerks in the Royal Engineers in 1920.  Browsing their Rolls 2(a) appears a common error, i.e. the date is too early for Salonika. One probable reason for this is the soldier was shown to the MEF (Mediterranean Expeditinary Force) which covered both Gallipoli and Salonika.

 

In total over six million medals were issued so it’s not surprising there were clerical errors,but if they came within the qualifying period it wasn’t necessary to be absolutely accurate.

 

Mudros was the advanced Base/entry port for the Dardanelles, probably the equivalent of Calais or the other ports in France.  It was still a theatre of war.  In the event it was not really suitable and many troops remained on board the transports before embarking for the front.  The Battalion remained on Mudros

until they landed at Suvla the following month.  

 

By the time the Rolls had been submitted Pte Collins had been discharged so nobody could ask him.

 

 

Ken

 

Edited 20 November , 2017 by kenf48

[PaddyO]

8 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 A common error is the date of embarkation is shown, so if you are able to browse the 14-15 Star Rolls for th Royal Irish Regiment  you will see a number of entries where the checking officer has deleted 8-7-15 and inserted 22-7-15.e.g. 662 Evill and the three entries below.  This was the date the HQ Coy, B C and D coys disembarked at Mudros from the HMT Transylvania, A Coy arrived on the 19th on the Mauretania. 

The Transport did not embark with the main body.  The diary notes a Muster Parade on the 24th July

 

 

Thanks Ken for your diligence over this query. I am very grateful.  Andrew's brother was in B coy (as evidenced in a sickness report from his service file) so presumably his card should correctly read 22/07/15 instead of the 8th. He only served with the RIR and was transferred to 3rd Battalion after being sent home from Salonika with TB whereupon he was discharged in 1917.

Your point regarding the Transport not embarking with the main body interests me. I'll go back to the diaries with renewed vigour.

Here's a picture of Andrew from his RIR time.

 

[kenf48]

Fine picture, his brother Edmond is one of the entries on the Royal Irish Rolls where the 8th of July has been struck through and the 22nd inserted.  His service record shows MEF 8-7-15 i.e.embarkation date.  Asqualification for BWM was ‘left native shore’ it can get confusing. There is no reference I can see on his record of the date of arrival in theatre.

 

I also note Edmond’s medals were returned KR1743 1912.  Next of kin may now claim these, See this thread

Ken

Edited 20 November , 2017 by kenf48

[PaddyO]

Thanks again Ken, very interesting. 

Edmond had died (07/11/18) by the time his medals were issued. His father was already deceased but his mother died in 1924 although I'm not sure if they would have tried to send them to her.  I'm not sure how deaths after service were tracked by the Army. At some stage they knew as he's listed in the register of soldiers effects and she is a claimant.  With regards to claiming the medals now it does raise a couple of points. Would they require a death cert since he'd already been medically discharged so was no longer a serving soldier - I presume so. I read the post you attached. I notice there is no mention of Death Plaques. I presume Edmond wouldn't have qualified? Are they recorded somewhere and has anyone tried to claim one now I wonder?

Regards NOK that's another can of worms after this distance! My mother and her sister live close to me (his great nieces). Andrew's granddaughter is still alive and another great niece I've met lives in Canada but there are probably others out there. Hmm. One to ponder! 

Thanks again Ken.

Edited 20 November , 2017 by PaddyO

[ss002d6252]

Quote

At some stage they knew as he's listed in the register of soldiers effects and she is a claimant

For a death after discharge a form W5063 could be lodged for the war gratuity  - for a man who had died after discharge this was usually the (possibly the only) way that an entry would have been made. The army put out adverts to encourage people to claim.

Craig

Edited 20 November , 2017 by ss002d6252

[PaddyO]

Thanks Craig. I'd wondered how it was done; very interesting. 

Do you know what the qualification  was for the plaques? Did deaths after discharge receive them?

[ss002d6252]

22 minutes ago, PaddyO said:

Thanks Craig. I'd wondered how it was done; very interesting. 

Do you know what the qualification  was for the plaques? Did deaths after discharge receive them?

 

I may be wrong but I think they were only for deaths in service.

Craig

[PaddyO]

Thanks again Craig. Sounds logical. I've never seen anything about a log/record of these or mention on a MIC. 23660 Pte James Henry Rattle was my great great uncle and his MIC just records Pres D following his death in April 1918 with 16th Royal Scots. Nothing about a plaque on there (or scroll) yet it was received by the family.

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, PaddyO said:

Thanks again Craig. Sounds logical. I've never seen anything about a log/record of these or mention on a MIC. 23660 Pte James Henry Rattle was my great great uncle and his MIC just records Pres D following his death in April 1918 with 16th Royal Scots. Nothing about a plaque on there (or scroll) yet it was received by the family.

 

Memorial Plaques could still be granted after discharge if the death was shown to be war related.  The distribution of the Memorial Scroll began in June 1919, due to production difficulties the Memorial Plaque was sent later but by 1921 most next-of-kin had received both.  As his medals appear to have been returned it may be the Plaque and Scroll were undelivered but it was an entirely separate process to the issue of the Campaign Medals. Relatives were advised that as such a large number were to be issued 'no special application' was to be made.

 

See also http://www.iwm.org.uk/history/first-world-war-next-of-kin-plaque

 

Ken 

[PaddyO]

Thanks again Ken. I wonder what the MOD stance is on issuing these along with medals. Perhaps I should start an application after all as its the centenary next year.

Edmond has two MICs as his BWM & VM roll is under the name Esmond. There was also much confusion as he is sometimes referred to as Edward and Eugene Collins (no relation) was allotted a similar Army number by the RIRs! When this soldier was killed they obviously noticed the similarity but to check they had the correct person wrote to my great grandmother gently enquiring whether she knew where her son was and she writes back to confirm he's at home with her. 

Edited 20 November , 2017 by PaddyO