7th Northants

[jim_davies]

Hoped someone could help me out with the above battalion's role in the attack on Guillemont.

Two of the men I'm researching died with the 7th Northants during this action.

Albert Victor Bagley was killed aged 18, having joined up the previous September. He had been in France since the beginning of 1916. Commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

Bertie Jackson Betts, had enlisted in Feb 1915, going to France in September 1915, being wounded in his first action, presumably at Loos later in the month. He was initally reported as wounded, then later as missing and finally as KIA. At some stage (after the war?) his body was recovered and interred at Delville Wood Cemetery. Sadly Bertie's younger brother Frank was killed just two days later while serving with the 1st Northants.

I've read some general accounts of the Guillemont fighting, and know that on the 18th the Northants took a German position close to, or at Guillemont quarry, but don't have much else.

I'm also confused as SD shows Bertie's death as on 17 Aug 1916 (along with about 35 of his comrades) the day before the attack. The battalion's co, Edgar Mobbs appears to have been wounded during the night of 17/18 Aug 1916. WOuld this have been before the main attack-which started at 2:45pm (?)

Any help would be much appreciated.

Jim

Any pointe

[Robert Dunlop]

My sources, including the day-by-day account and the British Official History, do not offer any more details. More information will have to come from diaries.

Here is a map of the quarry.

Robert

[John_Hartley]

Jim

The Battleground Europe "Guillemont" book doesnt add nuch more. Attack did start at 2.45pm.

The relevent quote from the book "In the centre of the attacks, in front of Guillemont, the troops were unable to advance their positions in the vicinty of Arrow Head and the Trones Wood-Guillemont Road. A little to the north of that road some progress was made when the left hand companies of the 7th Northamptonshires managed to gain a foothold in the German lines adjacent to the Quarry (57cSW3. T.19.c.1,4). This was an extraordinary feat on the part of these men who were later reinforced by a company of the 9th Royal Sussex. As darkness fell engineers were brought forward to help in the process of consolidation here on the western outskirts of the village."

I presume that, if soemone has a trench map, the map references in the quote should enable you to pin precisely where they were.

John

[Bob Coulson]

British Battalions on the Somme just gives,

"Attack on Guillemont, heavy fighting at The Quarry, casualties=372.

Bob.

[stiletto_33853]

Barry Cuttell in 148 Days on the Somme gives a very brief description:-

Rain on the 18th made movement difficult in the cratered ground. The untaken objectives to a long bombardment, this time with no increase in tempo in the final minutes to avoid arousing the Germans to a possible attack. Zero was set for 2.45 pm on the 18th.

The 24th Division, still in position west and north west of Guillemont, attacked with the 73rd Brigade, the 13th Middlesex on the south of Guillemont track, the 7th Northampton to the north. The Middlesex, close to the creeping barrage, arrived at the German front line where the battalion was halted by cross fire of machine guns sited in the quarry and in strong points in the south west corner of the village. In spite of the determined assault, it was impossible to force an entry. Just to the north, heavy fire also prevented the Northamptons from entering the front line trench directly facing the main attack, but the left company forced a lodgement in the front line near the quarry. Here, the fighting was desperate and the Northamptons were re-inforced by the 9th Royal Sussex of the same brigade. Engineers also moved up to help with the consolidation of the bitterly contested gain.

Hope this helps a little.

Andy

[Robert Dunlop]

7th Northamptonshires managed to gain a foothold in the German lines adjacent to the Quarry (57cSW3. T.19.c.1,4).

I presume that, if soemone has a trench map, the map references in the quote should enable you to pin precisely where they were.

If you look at the map above, the co-ordinates can be worked out from the point where the two solid lines of the grid cross each other, middle left. Count one small notch to the right and then four notches up. It almost corresponds to the left-hand edge of the quarry.

Robert

[Kate Wills]

Here (assuming it works) is page 45 from Capt H B King's history of the 7th Northamptonshire Regiment

(more to follow)

[Kate Wills]

and pages 46 and 47

[jim_davies]

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread, the information provided has been more than I'd expected and really helped me get a handle on Bertie's death.

Can't imagine the feelings felt by Mr & Mrs Betts who they were informed first, that both their sons were missing, and then that both had been killed in action.

Thanks again,

Jim

[Retrac]

A late contribution following a recent visit to Kew

My grandfather was with 73 Coy MGC in support of, among others 7 Northants. The 73 MGC diary reports from 17/18 August

17th Order received that 73rd IB would relieve 72nd IB in the line during daylight.

Men to wear fighting order as detailed on attached

Orders re relief as per attached (annex 3)

Relief greatly hindered by heavy enemy shelling but completed by 6am

Casualties: MGC 1 O.R wounded Attached from 7th Northamptonshire 1 O.R wounded

Company HdQrs established SW of TRONES WOOD on N of MALTZ HORN VALLEY 2nd i/c with 73 IB at BRICQUETERIE Neighbourhood of S.29.d.5.0

18th 12;40am 73 IB O.O (revised) received altering Brigade attack to a 2 Battalion frontage and M.G Reserve from four to six guns.

Two guns attached to 9th Royal Sussex Regt detached from them and placed in reserve at BRICQUETERIE

5:30 Verbal message received from Sergt CARTER that 2nd Lt ANDERSON’S team had suffered severely and that the gun was out of action having been disabled by shell fire.

Ordered Sergt DISNEY to take forward one of the second line guns to replace damaged one and for old team to report to Company HdQrs

6:30 Obtained leave from Brigade to replace Sergt Disney’s gun in second line by gun from reserve. Cpl Evans and team sent forward.

8:00 Disposition of guns now as attached

8:55 ZERO time received being 2:45pm

Private Swame i/c B Gun team reported to Company HQ with gun and team having found himself in wrong assembly trenches and being unable to obtain any information from the 13th Middlesex Regt and being ordered by them to rejoin his company

Casualties up this time MGC 2 Officers killed, shell fire 2nd Lt E.L. BLECK and 2nd Lt G.R. ANDERSON 2 O.R killed , shell fire 4O.R wounded 2 O.R missing.

O.R attached 4 wounded 2 missing

2:45pm Attack started

5:15pm Private Gatenby (wounded) stated right hand guns held up with 13th Middlesex Regt but going forward with Leinsters who were relieving them.

Sergt Carter (wounded) stated his gun went forward and succeeded in establishing themselves 50 yards in front of line being consolidated by 7th Northamptonshire Regt and about 100 yards to right of QUARRY

7pm Information received through Major Murphy (temporarily in command of 7th Northamptonshires) that his left flank was being covered by gun under Sergt Disney who had succeeded in getting forward and establishing himself on his flank

TOTAL CASUALTIES FOR DAY: MGC 2 Officers killed, 2 O.R. killed, 8 wounded , 2 missing

Attached O.R. 14 wounded 2 missing

HAPPY VALLEY

19th 1:25am Received orders from Brigade General to send one reserve gun to QUARRY to report to Major Murphy. Sergt Searson and team sent up but owing to lack of guides failed to get to position complete and returned to C.H.Q.

10am 2nd Leinster Regt and gun under Sergt Hubbard relieved by Battalion of 72nd IB. Gun placed in reserve at BRICQUETERIE

7pm Gun at quarry relieved by 72nd MGC. No trace to be found of gun and team originally under Sergt Carter.

10pm 2nd line guns under 2nd Lts MAUNSELL and WOOD (total 4) relieved by 4 guns of 105th Brigade

11:45pm All guns relieved and removed to CARNOY CRATERS under Lt Springfield.

Casualties for the day: 2nd Lt DOVE gassed by gas shell. Attached O.R killed 1 wounded 2, sick to hospital .

My grandfather was Sjt John Edwin Carter reporting above his support of the 7 Northants. He was awarded a DCM for his contribution to the action.

David

[jim_davies]

David,

Thank for posting this, ot certainly adds to my understanding of the events of the day.

Jim

[Stebie9173]

While this topic is "reactivated", 17118 Bertie Jackson Betts was in "B" Company according to the Nominal Roll in "The Raising of the 7th (Service) Battalion The Northamptonshire Regiment"

Steve.

[jim_davies]

Hey Steve,

I actually just received the service records for both Betts brothers, but didn't have his company info, so much appreciated.

Bertie was 26 years old when he enlisted at Willesden, London on 23rd Jan 1915. He was a printer by trade and married to Florence Louisa Airely (sp). His medical examine revealed Bertie to be 5 feet, 7 1/2 inches tall with a fully expanded chest measurement of 35 inches. Posted to the 7th Northants on 28th Jan 1915.

He went out to France on 31 Aug 1915, and appears to served until 30 Apr 1916 without illness, wounds or leave (as opposed to my earlier post, based on newspaper article), when he was lightly wounded, GSW Chest. There follows an account of his movements thru the casualty clearing chain, which I can't really make out too well, until mid May 1916 when he is discharged to the Base Details of the 5th ??, at Wimereux (sp) and then on the 24th IBD from which he rejoined the battalion on 16 Jun 1916.

There's two notations that I've never seen before in service records (then again I haven't seen that many)

On the line under "missing" is recorded "wife notified, 11/9/16" and later there's written "Exhumed & reburied in Delville Wood Cem, 5 1/2 ? SW of Bapaume 3/3/20".

Finally his wife receives a pension from 16/4/17, I wonder if this is when he was finally considered to have been KIA?

[Stebie9173]

Your posting also does me a favour as I'm gradually narrowing down my great-uncles time of enlistment (though I'm obviously only going to get it to within a few days). I had him "calculated" to somewhere in the range of say 7-20th January 1915. This confirms my calculation as somewhere near ok.

I have been compiling the Northamptons from the Times Casualty lists and don't have Bertie Betts down as wounded at Loos or anywhere else, so that matches the services records. There are a few Betts' in the Northamptons so perhaps the newspaper was combining two soldiers together?

There appears to have been a 5th Base Hospital at Wimereux. 24th IBD would be an Infantry Base Depot.

There is a reference to it on the main site, here:

http://www.1914-1918.net/heroes/merritt.htm

Steve.

[jim_davies]

Hi Steve,

I think the newspaper may have mixed up Bertie with a third brother Wilfred, who was wounded during his first action at Sulva (Lincolns).

At a later stage I would be grateful if I could ran a few 7th Northants lads through your nominal roll if possible.

Jim

[Stebie9173]

No problems, Jim.

You know I like your lists!

Offer open to anyone else, as well. (Basically a list of men split into Companies who were on the strength of the battalion as at 17th August 1915, just prior to the battalion going to France.)

Steve.

[jim_davies]

Thanks Steve,

Looking at my notes, might not need your help (this time), most of the Stamford lads in the 7th, seem to have been later entrants to the battalion...

Jim