mrfrank Posted 14 November , 2017 Share Posted 14 November , 2017 Before I continue trawling through the medal rolls, does anyone know if there's a 1915 nominal roll for this battalion in any publication etc? I have a 1915 named photograph of 2 Platoon, A Company that just has the surnames with no initials. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 15 November , 2017 Share Posted 15 November , 2017 Mr Frank, I have been compiling a list of members of the UPS, including 18th RF over a couple of years with about 7,500 names; it will always be incomplete as the medal rolls do not include those who left sick or commissioned before the Brigade went overseas. The only sources for service numbers of those who left early is through officer files at Kew. I have company information for a few but platoon information for very few - I could only name nineteen men of A Coy at present. I'm happy to look up surnames but it may not be easy to track them all without initials. Please publish any surnames on here or feel free to send me a private message for me to work through. I'm slowly writing a book on the brigade and would be interested to see the photo as I'm trying to get likenesses for some of those who served. Do you have a date for the photo beyond the year; this might help narrow down the names. Kind regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 16 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2017 (edited) Hello Colin, Many thanks for your reply and offer of help.....In an effort to identify some of those featured I've spent some time trying to look up names in the WW1 medal rolls, but it is such a frustrating process and not very user friendly to say the least! As was common, I think the photograph was probably taken shortly before their departure for France in mid-November 1915. I'll take and post an image of the photo in here tomorrow when I have better light, but here are the surnames to the mount...... I started on the officers/NCOs and have made some poss/prob identifications: Capt Henry Smurthwaite 2nd Lt Dudley Mark Hayward Jewell (Kia 20Jan16 attd RE) Sgt Harris Cpl Faulkener Cpl (1575 George) Hallam (Commissioned RWarwicks) L Cpl (5828 Walter Hamilton) Brodie (Kia 09Apr17, 15RS) L Cpl (6563 Samuel Newman) Carley (Kia 25Sep17, 207 Coy MGC) L Cpl (6027 William Edward) Crouch (MC) (Comm 10th E Surreys) L Cpl Hessey L Cpl (1773 Hugh) Manners (Kia 24Apr17, 52 Coy MGC) L Cpl Webster Privates listed next....... Edited 16 November , 2017 by mrfrank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 16 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2017 (edited) Privates....... Proctor Bell Walley Day Murgatroyd ( 6590 Thomas) Rose Bowmer (6636 Herbert Edgar) Carley (6564 Thomas Eley) Brown Archer Barrow Catchpole Street Crappe or Grappe Harrop (7562 Ernest) Dean Nixon (1865 Cecil William Edward) Guy Pickford (6954 Herbert Thomas Reade - Kia) Owen Ledger (6674 Harold Partington - Kia 20Nov17, 3Sqn RFC) Constantinade (think this is 6388 Walter Arthur Constantinidi) Brodie (6661 Sidney Edward - Kia 17Apr17, 17RF) Turner Heaphy (6589 William Standish) Hoult (6668 Robert Percy - Kia 16Aug17, 2WYR) Ponton (6593 Harold Frederick - Kia 29Apr17, 17RF) Wilson Francis Kemp Price White Fry Moor Smith Hunt James Loney Edited 16 November , 2017 by mrfrank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 16 November , 2017 Share Posted 16 November , 2017 Mr Frank Many thanks for posting; if nothing else it adds to my knowledge of who is in which company; something that is not easy to find. You are right; it is likely that the picture was taken shortly before the battalion departed overseas; the turnover in manpower was fairly high up until shortly before this point. Capt Henry Smurthwaite - enlisted 3 Sep 1914 PS/2088; aged 33, a Ship broker from Cookham Berks; gazetted 27/10/14, Captain 2/6/15 - presumably to fulfill the role of OC A Company 2nd Lt Dudley Mark Hayward Jewell (Kia 20Jan16 attd RE) - enlisted 2/9/14, educated at Felsted, Essex, an all round athlete, a farmer, attached to 180th Tunnelling Company; died rying to rescue men from a mine shaft overcome by gas from an explosion Sgt Harris - likely PS/1594 Norman Bradford Harris, he had his motorbike stolen whilst training at Epsom, Mentioned in Despatches 15/6/16 in France, later joined the RFC and RAF as an officer. Cpl Faulkener - possibly PS/6193 Cpl Francis William Falconer (either 18th or 21st RF?), from Helensburgh, later A/Sgt, 26/6/16 RAMC, Lt, Capt Cpl (1575 George) Hallam (King Edwards School Birmingham, worked for Lloyds Bank, Commissioned 15th RWarwicks, wounded) - possibly also PS/7325 Ernest Cecil Hallam, later 602445 Lab Corps, Class Z 5/5/19 L Cpl (5828 Walter Hamilton) Brodie (15 RS 6/7/16, Kia 09Apr17, 15RS) - Brother of Walter - below! L Cpl (6563 Samuel Newman) Carley (Kia 25Sep17, 207 Coy MGC) - educated at Framlingham College, a merchant, brother of Thomas below L Cpl (6027 William Edward) Crouch (MC) (Comm 10th E Surreys), later Captain L Cpl Hessey - Hessay? - PS/1613 LCpl James Absalom, later Sgt, sent to OCB but did not commission; later Sgt 1st RF, Class Z Res 14/3/19 L Cpl (1773 Hugh) Manners (Kia 24Apr17, 52 Coy MGC) L Cpl Webster - PS/2220 George Alexander, from Putney (2Lt Somerset LI)or PS/6676 Harold Pearson - clerk in a soap manufacturers, attached 180th TC (2Lt S Lancs and later IASC mule transport) Proctor - 6609 John Hall (13th Suffolks) Bell - 7146 William - later 632599 Lab Corps, Class Z 26/6/19 Walley - 7775 Ernest - later G/11666 E Kent R, Cpl, Class Z 5/2/19 Day - either 6050 John Clements or more likely 6587 Henry Julian Day (known to be A Coy already), Great Yarmouth Grammar School, MG Corps; died of pneumonia Oct 1918 Murgatroyd ( 6590 Thomas) - later gazetted DLI 26/9/16 Rose - 6611 Leonard David, G/50429 RF, 9th RF 11/10/16 to 14/12/17, Cpl, Class Z Res 8/2/19, died 1979, Norfolk Bowmer (6636 Herbert Edgar) - 52261 Glos R, LCpl, Dis 14/9/18 Carley (6564 Thomas Eley) also Framlingham College, Commercial Traveller, from Ipswich as his brother above. Brown – sadly 9 options Archer – 6863 John Archer - 246812 RE, Cpl, Class Z 26/1/19 Barrow – 7152 William Barrow, later gazetted, 16/2/17 Kings Own, Lt Catchpole – 6145 Geoffrey H, later 87428 RDC Street – 8091 Alfred James, later GS/73184, Cpl, Class Z 9/3/19 Crappe or Grappe – possibly 7803 Henry Thomas Crapp Harrop (7562 Ernest) later G/11655 7th E Kent R, Sgt, G/36798, Z Class Res 3/2/19 Dean possibly 5834 George Frederick Deane, Eversley, Southwold and Colchester Schools, 25/9/16 Essex Regt, 11th Essex, KIA 22/4/17 Nixon (1865 Cecil William Edward), 25/9/16 Middx R, Lt Guy – 6771 Ernest Stuart Guy, from Sidcup, later RFC and KOYLI Pickford (6954 Herbert Thomas Reade - Kia), The Grammar School, Burford, Oxon, later gazetted 25/9/16 OBLI, KiA 25/4/17 Salonika Owen – 4 possibles Ledger (6674 Harold Partington - Kia 20Nov17, 3Sqn RFC) Constantinade (think this is 6388 Walter Arthur Constantinidi) – agreed - Sutton, Surrey and The Imperial Ottoman Bank, Jaffa, Palestine, 4/8/16 10th E Surrey, Lt Gen List, Capt Int Corps (Gen List), AAG 3rd Ech GHQ Br Salonika Force 10/3/19 Brodie (6661 Sidney Edward – gazetted 18/12/16 to London Regt, Kia 17Apr17, 17RF) Turner – three possibilities Heaphy (6589 William Standish) aged 19, Bank Clerk, 25/9/16 MGC, 176th MG Coy, Wounded Pilckem 31/7/17, Lt 03/17, 48th Bn, 21/3/19 Demob, 1/9/21 Rel Com Hoult (6668 Robert Percy - Kia 16Aug17, 2WYR), St Johns Foundation School for sons of poor clergy, Student, Ponton (6593 Harold Frederick - Kia 29Apr17, 17RF), attached 180th Tunnelling Company, 28th RF, 17th RF, KIA 29/4/17 Wilson – 4 possibles Francis – 3771 Dudley Collin, 7/7/16 5th Y and L, A Coy KIA 13/11/16 Kemp – three possibles Price - ? White – three possibles Fry – three possibles Moor – 6 x Moor or Moore Smith – 10 possibles Hunt – 4 possibles James – likely 3819 Edmund James Tricker, later gazetted 3rd S Lancs, Captain Loney - ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 17 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2017 (edited) Thanks for that great amount of information Colin - much appreciated. Here's the image and if I can get it any sharper I'll change them. If you want any individual images or close-ups PM me. Mike. Edited 17 November , 2017 by mrfrank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 17 November , 2017 Share Posted 17 November , 2017 Mike, Many thanks for sharing this. The barracks are definitely Tidworth and as almost none of the men listed above didn't go out with the Bn in November I would expect it to be from late October early November. I have a couple of diaries/letters from the IWM for personnel in the Bn who may be able to suggest a more precise date; normally a photographer would come and do the whole Bn, by Platoons or Coys in one go. I have a copy of a similar picture of a platoon from 20th RF from the IWM but without names; I presume it will be by the same company. The distinctive barrack blocks have mostly gone but four survive in Tidworth; I couldn't therefore provide a direct before and after but could give you a comparison picture. Looking at the odds a least 1/4 of the platoon (12/48) were killed/died during the war; I would presume another 1/4 were wounded. I will definitely take you up on your kind offer but will contact you by PM. Many thanks again. If I find out anything more about the chap in the picture I'll let you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 17 November , 2017 Share Posted 17 November , 2017 On 11/15/2017 at 19:10, Colin W Taylor said: Mr Frank, I have been compiling a list of members of the UPS, including 18th RF over a couple of years with about 7,500 names; it will always be incomplete as the medal rolls do not include those who left sick or commissioned before the Brigade went overseas. The only sources for service numbers of those who left early is through officer files at Kew. I have company information for a few but platoon information for very few - I could only name nineteen men of A Coy at present. Kind regards Colin Colin, Just of a few of the 18th, 19th, 20th & 21st Royal Fusiliers that were commissioned into the Rifle Brigade and killed during the war. I have all their service papers, if there attestation papers from their records are of help let me know. Still got to go through a few of my databases to see if there are any more for you. Adam, P. 19th, 3429 Bott, G. 19th, 106 Buxton, A.R, 21st, 2496 Dunnage, A. 18th, 1446 Frisch, M. 18th, 1500 Huddart, R.W.J. 18th, 509 Irvine, C.K. 21st, 2880 Marchetti, A. 20th, 5291 Martin, R. 21st, 6887 Moore, R. 19th, 683 Patey, E. 18th, 1904 Simmonds, W.S. 19th, 887 Spanton, J.W. 21st, 3260 Thornton, N.S. 19th, 978 Vanstone, S..R. 20th, 5807 Vernede, R.E. 19th, 1021 Westacott, E.G. 18th, 3495 Williams, H.E.E. 18th, 2391 Wines, W.W. 20th, 5952 Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 17 November , 2017 Share Posted 17 November , 2017 Andy, That is outstanding; many thanks. I'll have a check through and add them; a couple are familiar but some are completely new to me which mean's I've not got them. I had a quick look at RB men on my list after getting your PM and have about 30. I'm very grateful for your help. Regards Colin P.S. I have officer files for P J Pither 14th RB (later 13th RB) and E A Batty 5th RB (later 8th RB), who were both 18th RF; happy to share if you haven't got these and they're within your area of interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 17 November , 2017 Share Posted 17 November , 2017 Mike, Attached is a poor copy of a photo of a platoon of D Coy 20th RF; presumably taken at a similar location but certainly not at the same time of day. Sadly no company mark on this one to confirm if it was the same photographer. Attached is a shot of the surviving buildings also but not likely the exact one. I'll see what else I can dig out. Kind regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 17 November , 2017 Share Posted 17 November , 2017 Colin, Thank you, I have Batty but not Pither. More than willing to share anything I have on my hard drives. I have not gone through all of my files as yet, the list I put up in the previous post were all KIA's, DOW or Died, a few more buried away in the KIA's, I will dig them out for you. Regarding those that survived I have to update these on my spreadsheets. The problem with a lot of these Rifle Brigade files are that quite a few are labelled on the NA site as Connaught Rangers, just over 100 just on the December 1914 Army List so sometimes they take a bit of digging out. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 18 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2017 (edited) Thanks for posting those 20RF images - even complete with the lower legs on the balcony above per my image! One thing though -do you think it could possibly be an image of the senior Company Officers and NCO's rather than a particular platoon as all those visible seem to have stripes up...and the two officers are a Major and a Capt? Edited 18 November , 2017 by mrfrank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 18 November , 2017 Share Posted 18 November , 2017 mrfrank, Hope this additional info to help Colin complete his UPS files does not detract from your original posting. Colin, There seems to be another 4 UPS men that ended up as officers in the 8th Rifle Brigade. Bloomer, G.H. 2382, 20th Crowther, D.E. 6192, 21st Meacock, D. 2878, 21st Savage, O.F. 1381, 20th Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 18 November , 2017 Share Posted 18 November , 2017 Andy, That is brilliant; a very public thankyou. PM to follow. Mike, I was looking through some photos I had of the Pow Wow and found this one of the photographer E E Turner who was obviously a fixture of the UPS brigade; from the edition dated 6 November 1915 . I read in one account, I cannot remember which, that a photographer followed them from Epsom to Clipstone and thence to Tidworth and set up a camp in both locations. Sergeant Medlicott of D Company wrote that on 26 October 1915 that his cohort was; '... thinking of having a platoon photo and a coy sergeants photo with officers, or some of them - 'ere we leave...'. From his docs at the IWM. Regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Taylor Posted 18 November , 2017 Share Posted 18 November , 2017 Mike, Please see attached an obituary for Dudley Jewell from De Ruvigny's Roll of Honour. Regards Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrfrank Posted 19 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2017 Thanks for the extra information Colin. That drawing of the photographer is superb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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