kevvo1962 Posted 11 November , 2017 Share Posted 11 November , 2017 Hello there all,..i have tried my hardest to find out about a strange medal prefix i have never seen before,But alas without success,,So ive come to the only place i can think of that could help me....the prefix is before the unit on a victory medal..It reads.... 222 -M.G.C.....ive never seen numbers before a unit ..the owner is a 94413 CPL H.P.PAYNE.....He Was also in the 25 London Regiment...Hope someone can explain it to me..yours..Kevin..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rksimpson Posted 11 November , 2017 Share Posted 11 November , 2017 Hi No clue in his MIC or Medal Roll. Looking in LLT gives this list - http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/the-companies-and-battalions-of-the-machine-gun-corps/ Oddly no 222 company??? regards Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 11 November , 2017 Share Posted 11 November , 2017 The 222 Company appears to have taken part in the 3rd Afghan War, and there is a War Diary at the National Archives which includes this Company http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4558561 WO 95/5409 I believe 222 Machine Gun Company was at Campbellpur, India (now Pakistan) at least for the period 1 March 1917 to 22 October 1917. The company then moved to Rawalpindi, India (now Pakistan) where it remained past 18 April 1918. It was still in existence in June 1919. Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 11 November , 2017 Share Posted 11 November , 2017 Hi Kevin The Victory Medal is oddly marked because he wasn't entitled to a Victory Medal so this one has been "self " awarded. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rksimpson Posted 11 November , 2017 Share Posted 11 November , 2017 Of course, I should have realised that!!! MIC only for BWM and TFEM. regards Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevvo1962 Posted 11 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 11 November , 2017 Thank you for that response,brilliant,seemed strange..his War medal and Territorial war medal and Efficiency medal are all marked 25th London regiment....also he has twin brothers both k.i.action...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 11 November , 2017 Share Posted 11 November , 2017 8 hours ago, Maureene said: The 222 Company appears to have taken part in the 3rd Afghan War, and there is a War Diary at the National Archives which includes this Company http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4558561 WO 95/5409 I believe 222 Machine Gun Company was at Campbellpur, India (now Pakistan) at least for the period 1 March 1917 to 22 October 1917. The company then moved to Rawalpindi, India (now Pakistan) where it remained past 18 April 1918. It was still in existence in June 1919. Cheers Maureen Probably served in India (hence BWM only) and likely transferred into MGC there. 222nd Coy. were involved in 3rd Afghan war and a number appear on the GSM roll, but does not look like he was awarded a GSM/clasp. On that roll there were three MGC Paynes received GSM - Albert C. Payne 222nd Coy., George H.W. Payne 263 Coy. and Ernest E. G. Payne 22nd Squadron As mentioned above probably awarded himself the VM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevvo1962 Posted 11 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 11 November , 2017 thankyou for ur hard work..im much more aware now....he had twin brothers who were both k.i.a....in 1918....sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tavern Druid Posted 12 October , 2018 Share Posted 12 October , 2018 On 11/11/2017 at 17:21, david murdoch said: Probably served in India (hence BWM only) and likely transferred into MGC there. 222nd Coy. were involved in 3rd Afghan war and a number appear on the GSM roll, but does not look like he was awarded a GSM/clasp. On that roll there were three MGC Paynes received GSM - Albert C. Payne 222nd Coy., George H.W. Payne 263 Coy. and Ernest E. G. Payne 22nd Squadron As mentioned above probably awarded himself the VM! On 11/11/2017 at 17:21, david murdoch said: Probably served in India (hence BWM only) and likely transferred into MGC there. 222nd Coy. were involved in 3rd Afghan war and a number appear on the GSM roll, but does not look like he was awarded a GSM/clasp. On that roll there were three MGC Paynes received GSM - Albert C. Payne 222nd Coy., George H.W. Payne 263 Coy. and Ernest E. G. Payne 22nd Squadron As mentioned above probably awarded himself the VM! On 11/11/2017 at 17:21, david murdoch said: Probably served in India (hence BWM only) and likely transferred into MGC there. 222nd Coy. were involved in 3rd Afghan war and a number appear on the GSM roll, but does not look like he was awarded a GSM/clasp. On that roll there were three MGC Paynes received GSM - Albert C. Payne 222nd Coy., George H.W. Payne 263 Coy. and Ernest E. G. Payne 22nd Squadron As mentioned above probably awarded himself the VM! Hi David I have just found your post from 2017 whilst looking for information on the illusive 222nd Coy MGC. The man I am researching is Pte Sidney John Barker S/n 94442 222nd Coy MGC which is very close the the man in kevvo1962 post for 94413 CPL H.P.PAYNE which started this thread. Sidney Barker (formerly 2194 RWK) died on the hospital ship Sicilia on 11 may 1919 of "sickness" which I presume was Spainish Flu, as there was a third outbreak in the then Bomday in Sept 1918. I found a medal roll for the Indian GSM on the TNA Site and found men with the serials numbers either side of Barkers number (ie 94441 and 94443) but nothing recorded for him. I don't know what period of service qualified a man for the GSM, but my feeling is that Sidney Barker did not qualify possible because he feel ill before the qualifing period. Is it possioble please for you to confirm that from your source? Sidneys medal Index records that he was only awarded the British War Medal. Thanks David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 12 October , 2018 Share Posted 12 October , 2018 Certainly on his Medal Index Card , shows he was only awarded the British War Medal. No Victory Medal as serving in India during the war years. The 3rd Afghan war was 6th May to 8th August 1919. If he was already sick and in India rather than the frontier provinces he would not qualify for GSM/Clasp. Also I see he is commemorated on the Hollybrook Memorial, so assume he was buried at sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tavern Druid Posted 13 October , 2018 Share Posted 13 October , 2018 10 hours ago, david murdoch said: Certainly on his Medal Index Card , shows he was only awarded the British War Medal. No Victory Medal as serving in India during the war years. The 3rd Afghan war was 6th May to 8th August 1919. If he was already sick and in India rather than the frontier provinces he would not qualify for GSM/Clasp. Also I see he is commemorated on the Hollybrook Memorial, so assume he was buried at sea. Hi David Just as I suspected he did not qualify for the GSM. He died on board Sicilia on 11 May 1919.Itt was reporrted in the shipping list on 1 May 1919 of a newspaper that the ship "left Bombay for Marsailles on the 26th" which must have been 26 April. So they would not have kept hius body on board until they reach Marsailles so he must have been buried at sea. Thanks for you help. Best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 13 October , 2018 Share Posted 13 October , 2018 David. If you can find his "service return" will likely state what he actually died of. Not sure where exactly to find this, but in the case of Scots these records have been transferred to Scotlands People. In lieu of a death certificate as they died out with the country they have the page from the deaths in service returns from their regiments. In majority of cases shows KIA or DoW, However in the case of sickness it usually states what exactly they died of. In some I've looked up you can see cases of malaria, blackwater fever, tetanus, appendicitis ect. Your man will be on MGC service return somewhere. I'd be very interested to find out where the original lists which would include everyone and if they are digitised. This may also indicate if he had been ill for some time. It hint's at something more serious than flu (not that flu was not deadly) but he was obviously being evacuated back to UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Strawbridge Posted 13 October , 2018 Share Posted 13 October , 2018 Are we not talking about the Indian Machine Gun Corps rather than the British one? I have a victory medal named to Jemdr. Mohd. Afzal, 261 M.G. CPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 13 October , 2018 Share Posted 13 October , 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Jim Strawbridge said: Are we not talking about the Indian Machine Gun Corps rather than the British one? I have a victory medal named to Jemdr. Mohd. Afzal, 261 M.G. CPS. 261 Machine Gun Corps was part of the British Army, even though formed in India. http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/the-companies-and-battalions-of-the-machine-gun-corps/ I have seen instances where the Indians in a British Army Regiment were regarded as being in the Indian Army, but the Regiment was part of the British Army. Generally these Indians were support staff such as Mule Handlers etc. Cheers Maureen Edited 13 October , 2018 by Maureene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david murdoch Posted 14 October , 2018 Share Posted 14 October , 2018 9 hours ago, Jim Strawbridge said: Are we not talking about the Indian Machine Gun Corps rather than the British one? I have a victory medal named to Jemdr. Mohd. Afzal, 261 M.G. CPS. Jim. It's definitely the (UK) Machine Gun Corps. 222 Machine Gun Company. It was at Campbellpur at least for the period 1 March 1917 to 22 October 1917. The company then moved to Rawalpindi, where it remained past 18 April 1918. It was still in existence in June 1919. Due to things hotting up on NWF quite a few units had transfers in from regiments already in India. The chaps in this company who qualified for the India General Service medal and clasp are on the Machine Gun Corps medal roll. This roll is actually pretty useful as it usually states the actual company/ squadron or battery (in the case of the MGC Motors). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tavern Druid Posted 16 October , 2018 Share Posted 16 October , 2018 On 13/10/2018 at 13:39, david murdoch said: David. If you can find his "service return" will likely state what he actually died of. Not sure where exactly to find this, but in the case of Scots these records have been transferred to Scotlands People. In lieu of a death certificate as they died out with the country they have the page from the deaths in service returns from their regiments. In majority of cases shows KIA or DoW, However in the case of sickness it usually states what exactly they died of. In some I've looked up you can see cases of malaria, blackwater fever, tetanus, appendicitis ect. Your man will be on MGC service return somewhere. I'd be very interested to find out where the original lists which would include everyone and if they are digitised. This may also indicate if he had been ill for some time. It hint's at something more serious than flu (not that flu was not deadly) but he was obviously being evacuated back to UK. On 13/10/2018 at 15:33, Jim Strawbridge said: Are we not talking about the Indian Machine Gun Corps rather than the British one? I have a victory medal named to Jemdr. Mohd. Afzal, 261 M.G. CPS. On 14/10/2018 at 00:00, Maureene said: 261 Machine Gun Corps was part of the British Army, even though formed in India. http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/the-companies-and-battalions-of-the-machine-gun-corps/ I have seen instances where the Indians in a British Army Regiment were regarded as being in the Indian Army, but the Regiment was part of the British Army. Generally these Indians were support staff such as Mule Handlers etc. Cheers Maureen On 14/10/2018 at 01:27, david murdoch said: Jim. It's definitely the (UK) Machine Gun Corps. 222 Machine Gun Company. It was at Campbellpur at least for the period 1 March 1917 to 22 October 1917. The company then moved to Rawalpindi, where it remained past 18 April 1918. It was still in existence in June 1919. Due to things hotting up on NWF quite a few units had transfers in from regiments already in India. The chaps in this company who qualified for the India General Service medal and clasp are on the Machine Gun Corps medal roll. This roll is actually pretty useful as it usually states the actual company/ squadron or battery (in the case of the MGC Motors). Thanks everyone for replying. I've never heard of the "service returns" so would not have a cluse as to where to start looking for them. But I did think that as it is stated on his death certificate that he "died of sickness" that it wasa due to the flu. But as david as siad if it was something else, like malaria, blackwater fever, tetanus, appendicitis it would be on the cerificate. But it does give me another problem to confirn this either way! The LLT says that they were part of the 2nd (Rawalpindi) Division Rawalpindi Brigade (4th) 222 Machine Gun Company (joined June 1917) https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/2nd-rawalpindi-division/ thanks for your help David Turner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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