Last casualties November 11th 1918?

[greatspywar]

Hello dear forum members,

 

I am writing a small article on the events of November 1918. I would like to add a short paragraph on the last fatalities. So far I have:

 

- two Frenchmen

- An Englishman

- A Canadian

- An American

- A German (who was shot after the Armistice...)

 

Can anybody add other names, such as the last Australian, New-Zealander, etc?

 

Is there any info on the last German casualties before the Armistice?

 

Thank you for all your help,

 

Jan

[John_Hartley]

Presumably, you'll be including a Belgian, Jan? Even if not an 11/11 death.

[TGM]

Apologies if I have misunderstood, but have you considered  fatalities from other countries such as other commonwealth countries than those listed? For example those found  on the CWGC website from India:

DURGA BAHADUR RAI
Rifleman
2497
Monday, November 11, 1918
SHILLONG MEMORIAL
Assam Rifles
Indian

 

KARBIR THAPA
Rifleman
3122
Monday, November 11, 1918
SHILLONG MEMORIAL
Assam Rifles

Indian

 

TIKARAM GHARTI
Rifleman
1836
Monday, November 11, 1918
SHILLONG MEMORIAL
Assam Rifles
Indian

 

KANHAIYA DOGRA
Rifleman
1730
Monday, November 11, 1918
SHILLONG MEMORIAL
Assam Rifles
Indian

 

PADAM NARAYAN
Sepoy
603
Monday, November 11, 1918
DELHI MEMORIAL (INDIA GATE)
Indian Survey Department
Indian

 

SHIVRAM MAHAMUNKAR
Sepoy
1546
Monday, November 11, 1918
DELHI MEMORIAL (INDIA GATE)
110th Mahratta Light Infantry
Indian

 

SHER ZAMAN
Havildar
48
Monday, November 11, 1918
DELHI MEMORIAL (INDIA GATE)
89th Punjabis
Indian

BHURI SINGH
Sepoy
85
Monday, November 11, 1918
DELHI MEMORIAL (INDIA GATE)

112th Indian Infantry
Indian

 

There are also a number of South Africans too...

[CROONAERT]

18 hours ago, John_Hartley said:

Presumably, you'll be including a Belgian, Jan? Even if not an 11/11 death.

 

There was a Belgian infantryman of the 21e Linieregiment killed in action* at Sleidinge at 10am on the 11th (who I believe may well be the last Belgian soldier KIA in the war), so an 11/11 death is possible.

 

(* I use the term 'killed in action' a little loosely here as, though he was killed by German rifle fire, it was him acting like a bit of a donut that got him killed rather than in any true 'action' as such!)

 

Dave

Edited 3 November , 2017 by CROONAERT

[CROONAERT]

18 hours ago, greatspywar said:

Hello dear forum members,

 

I am writing a small article on the events of November 1918. I would like to add a short paragraph on the last fatalities. So far I have:

 

- two Frenchmen

 

Presumably you have the details of the cuirassier (6e R.C.) who was killed in action during a small skirmish near Cloitre between 10:55am and 10:56am on the 11th November -  a good 10 minutes after the widely acknowledged 'last' French casualty (Augustin Trébuchon)?

 

Dave

Edited 3 November , 2017 by CROONAERT

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

There is a claim for this American as the last casualty on the Western Front:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Gunther

 

The footnotes list some of those of other nations also who are thought to be the last casualties.

Edited 3 November , 2017 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[wandererpaul]

Wasn’t there a Michael Palin documentary about the last soldiers killed on Armistice Day?

 

might be on YouTube.....? 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

5 minutes ago, wandererpaul said:

Wasn’t there a Michael Palin documentary about the last soldiers killed on Armistice Day?

 

might be on YouTube.....? 

I think it was on 'Yesterday' last week.

It'll probably be on again over the next few days.

[CROONAERT]

4 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

It'll probably be on again over the next few days.

 

It is... it's one of the programmes advertised as being on 'Yesterday' for their 'Remembrance Week' of WW1 documentaries beginning on Monday 6th Nov. (Probably be on a couple of times then!)

 

Dave.

[wallace2]

Hi,  here are some notes about 11/11/18 casualties made for a talk on the Royal Naval Division.  If you follow up on CGWC site you will get the other three names.  

 

"They finished the war near a small town called Nouvelles close to Mons.  The Communal Cemetery there contains eight Commonwealth Graves.  One of the men buried there is Able Seaman David Battes of Erskine Street, Dundee who, along with three others, died on 11/11/1918.  The four other graves contain the bodies of Army men killed in the first days of fighting in 1914."

[Ian N Megson]

Hi

Am I right in thinking that the first Englishman to be killed in the conflict and the very last are buried in the same cemetery (St Symphorium ?)

 

[CROONAERT]

4 hours ago, Ian N Megson said:

 

Am I right in thinking that the first Englishman to be killed in the conflict and the very last are buried in the same cemetery (St Symphorium ?)

 

 

Technically, no you're not, but you are indeed correct if only following certain criteria...

 

The first Englishman/Englishmen to be killed in action or due to enemy action during WW1 went down on HMS Amphion on 6th August 1914. On land, the first Englishman to be killed in action was a Lancastrian from Hulme (now Greater Manchester) - and a distant relative of mine - who was killed in action at Sarrebourg on 20th August 1914.

 

However, the first Englishman to be killed in action whilst serving in a British Army regiment (21st August 1914) certainly is buried in St Symphorien - as is the last Englishman.

 

Dave.

[greatspywar]

On 2-11-2017 at 23:08, John_Hartley said:

Presumably, you'll be including a Belgian, Jan? Even if not an 11/11 death.

I sure will! I am not sure which one however. There seem to be a bunch of them... :-)

On 3-11-2017 at 13:26, TGM said:

Apologies if I have misunderstood, but have you considered  fatalities from other countries such as other commonwealth countries than those listed? For example those found  on the CWGC website from India:
BHURI SINGH
Sepoy
85
Monday, November 11, 1918
DELHI MEMORIAL (INDIA GATE)

112th Indian Infantry
Indian

 

There are also a number of South Africans too...

 

Hello, question is, did they die on the western front? Or at some other front, or in a hospital? 

[greatspywar]

On 3-11-2017 at 13:42, CROONAERT said:

 

Presumably you have the details of the cuirassier (6e R.C.) who was killed in action during a small skirmish near Cloitre between 10:55am and 10:56am on the 11th November -  a good 10 minutes after the widely acknowledged 'last' French casualty (Augustin Trébuchon)?

 

Dave

Hello there, I have yet another... he is not a cuirassier, but an infantry soldier of the 411 RI... . Then we have 3 Frenchmen claiming to be the last French casualty?

 

[greatspywar]

On 3-11-2017 at 13:36, CROONAERT said:

 

There was a Belgian infantryman of the 21e Linieregiment killed in action* at Sleidinge at 10am on the 11th (who I believe may well be the last Belgian soldier KIA in the war), so an 11/11 death is possible.

 

(* I use the term 'killed in action' a little loosely here as, though he was killed by German rifle fire, it was him acting like a bit of a donut that got him killed rather than in any true 'action' as such!)

 

Dave

 

As with the French, there are several Belgians who can possibly claim the dubious honour to be the last Belgian to be killed in action. Mine is part of the 2nd Chasseur à Pied. (2de Jagers te voet). There are also three Grenadiers. I had a newspaper clipping from 1998 or 2004 (can't remember) about the last Belgian, but I can't find it. 

 

[greatspywar]

On 3-11-2017 at 14:09, CROONAERT said:

 

It is... it's one of the programmes advertised as being on 'Yesterday' for their 'Remembrance Week' of WW1 documentaries beginning on Monday 6th Nov. (Probably be on a couple of times then!)

 

Dave.

I should move.... No way I can watch 'Yesterday' when not being in the UK. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On Friday, November 03, 2017 at 20:28, Ian N Megson said:

Hi

Am I right in thinking that the first Englishman to be killed in the conflict and the very last are buried in the same cemetery (St Symphorium ?)

 

 

War does have its symmetry or coincidences. That reminds me very much of Wilmer McLean:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmer_McLean

[CROONAERT]

2 hours ago, greatspywar said:

Hello there, I have yet another... he is not a cuirassier, but an infantry soldier of the 411 RI...

 

 

Auguste Renault?  Possible, but I'd personally disregarded him as 'the' last as I was under the belief that (his) 6e compagnie was taken out of action at Robechies just prior to 10:45am (a similar time to the death of Trébuchon) and suffered no further casualties after this time (though I have seen (unsubstantiated) evidence stating 10:58am)..

 

Dave

[greatspywar]

Does nobody have an idea who the last German casualty was before the conclusion of the Armistice? I have read somewhere that a German officer would have been the last officier killed on 10 November, but it would seems strange that nobody was killed on 11 November. Exception is Lt. d. Res. Erwin Thomä, who was more or less accidentally killed after the Armistice.

 

Any thoughts, anyone?

 

Jan

[phil andrade]

According to a book on my shelves, which I bought more than fifty years ago, there was indeed at least one German officer killed on 11 November 1918.

 

I have to say that I suspect the account might be apocryphal , but I will cite it.

 

From Barrie Pitt's 1918, THE LAST ACT,  pages 268-9, there is an anecdote about the British advance approaching a small village east of Valenciennes on the morning that the Armistice was to be signed.  There a patrol probing forward encountered a young German lieutenant, wounded in the thigh and left propped against a wall.

 

The German told the Tommies the village was empty, and as a result the battalion formed up and marched into the village, and halted in the square, whereupon it was struck by machine gun fire which opened up from well-sited vantage points, including the church tower.

 

More than one hundred British soldiers were cut down before the German machine gunners were killed ; the corporal of the scouting party ran back to find the wounded German officer who calmly endured his fate as he was bayoneted.

 

To make the cup run over, the same corporal discovered in a nearby barn the naked and mutilated body of a young girl, obviously dead only a matter of hours, victim of the strange Teutonic lust to take the whole world with them to their own destruction.

 

This strikes me as a lurid story, and I would be circumspect about its veracity....but who knows ?

 

Adding an edit : A glance at CWGC website tells me that there were a maximum of ten officers among the 327 dead  commemorated in France and Belgium that day, from a total of 327. 

 

Allowing for their loss suffered against the Franco Belgian and US forces that day, it's legitimate to assume that a thousand Germans died  ; and if we apply the ratio of officer deaths to those of other ranks apparent in published German casualty returns, then we might hazard a guess that thirty of their officers died.

 

 

Phil

Edited 6 November , 2017 by phil andrade

[greatspywar]

Hi Phil

 

The story seems to be a bit apocryphal as you indicate. :-) The German officer sharing false info, the British naively advancing, the MG gunners, the number of casualties, the mutilated girl... . It all seems a bit like the 1914 propaganda.

 

On the other hand, I completely agree with your estimate about the German casualties. There would be a likewise number of casualties, but since the Germans were in retreat and the allied forces - especially the Americans - were the attacking parties, I suspect more allied casualties than German casualties.

 

Thanks for your input!

 

Jan

[phil andrade]

That's a pleasure, Jan.

 

By the way, I have a French database that allows access to date of death : but it is incomplete, and virtually every day I've researched indicates a shortfall in the order of 25 per cent.

 

The number of entries for 11 November 1918 is 469 : that implies a true total of approaching 600.  These are deaths from all causes, all theatres, and that implies deaths overseas....but no doubt the vast majority were on the Western Front.

 

By a rather rough and ready approach of guesswork, I reckon that approximately two thousand soldiers died on the Western front on Armistice Day, rather more of them Allied than German : these would, of course, include deaths from accident and disease, and also men who died from wounds received earlier : by the same assessment, there must have been men mortally wounded that day who died in the days after the Armistice.

 

Incidentally, I am rather bewildered by the inclusion of a significant number of Germans among the CWGC figure of 327 deaths : I wonder what criteria were used by the CWGC, and what the rationale was.

 

Joseph E. Persico estimates 10,944 casualties on the Western Front on 11 November 1918, of whom 2,738 lost their lives, and states that this is a conservative estimate.

 

I would think that the  figure of 2,738 deaths is a tad too high....but certainly not to be dismissed out of hand.

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest]

This link might help

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?war=1&exactDate=11-11-1918

 

It records over 900 men who died on Armistice day including some German POWs... If you search on 12th Nov 1918 (the Day after Armistice day) there are 760 and so on...(see below)

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?war=1&exactDate=12-11-1918

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, QGE said:

This link might help

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?war=1&exactDate=11-11-1918

 

It records over 900 men who died on Armistice day including some German POWs... If you search on 12th Nov 1918 (the Day after Armistice day) there are 760 and so on...(see below)

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?war=1&exactDate=12-11-1918

 

Yes. But most of these were not Western Front casualties of that day. 267 died in the UK of which 22 were German.

There were deaths in Iraq, Iran, Russia, India, and other countries.

You need to filter for France  (285 incl. 10 German) & Belgium (42, incl. 13 German)

[phil andrade]

Persico's figure smacks of extrapolation and conjecture : it seems that he's applied an arbitrary ratio of 25% of all casualties being fatal..hence the 10,944 producing 2,738 deaths.

 

I would suppose that he's applied a notional daily average of casualties estimated for the entire war on the Western Front, and come up with the 10,944, and then assumed that one quarter of these were dead.

 

This would not stand up to scrutiny ; but I would hate to traduce him : his book is a powerful contribution to the historiography of the war, and he gives a pretty good account of the American fighting that day, which, it appears, produced a death toll that rivalled that of the British.

 

Phil