Bob Coulson Posted 27 December , 2004 Share Posted 27 December , 2004 Lt R B Woosnam is remembered on the panels of the Yorkshire Regiment on the Menin Gate but appears to have been KIA with the Worcesters on Gallipoli and is also remembered on the Helles Memorial. Anyone have any info on how this comes about? I can find no ref to him with the Yorkshires.? Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 27 December , 2004 Share Posted 27 December , 2004 Bob, These are the WWI Woosnams per the GWGC 1 WOOSNAM, A H Rifleman 228223 03/08/1917 19 Monmouthshire Regiment United Kingdom Enclosure No.4 IX. E. 14. BEDFORD HOUSE CEMETERY 5 WOOSNAM, ROBERT Private 28914 23/11/1917 22 Welsh Regiment United Kingdom Panel 7. CAMBRAI MEMORIAL, LOUVERVAL 6 WOOSNAM, RICHARD BOWEN Lieutenant 04/06/1915 34 Worcestershire Regiment United Kingdom Addenda Panel. HELLES MEMORIAL 7 WOOSNAM, ROBERT JOHN Sapper 450537 16/09/1918 32 Royal Engineers United Kingdom Screen Wall. WORMS (HOCHHEIM HILL) CEMETERY 8 WOOSNAM, STANLEY JAMES Private 201467 19/04/1918 22 King's Shropshire Light Infantry United Kingdom IV. E. 26. WULVERGHEM-LINDENHOEK ROAD MILITARY CEMETERY The chap at Helles seems to be a late addition as he is not included in “To What End Did They Die – Officers Died at Gallipoli” by R. W. Walker Perhaps the CWGC can give you some info re this late addition to Helles and that in turn may throw some light on the other ref which you mention Again from the CWGC WOOSNAM, RICHARD BOWEN Initials: R B Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Lieutenant Regiment: Worcestershire Regiment Unit Text: 6th Bn. attd. 4th Bn. Age: 34 Date of Death: 04/06/1915 Additional information: Son of Bowen Pottinger Woosnam and Kate Woosnam of 41 Warwick Gardens, Kensington. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Addenda Panel. Cemetery: HELLES MEMORIAL Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 27 December , 2004 Share Posted 27 December , 2004 If you look at the Gallipoli association website there appears to be a story recognising Richard Bowen Woosnam as the man who died twice. Possibly one of the members of the association will be able to explain what is contained in the published article. I was in school with a couple of Woosnams. It's a name that often appears in Mid Wales and goes back many centuries in that area. Although Richard Bowen's parents are listed as living in Kensington his grandfather and father were from the Mid Wales area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eviltaxman Posted 27 December , 2004 Share Posted 27 December , 2004 I've just check SDGW CD and Richard Bowen WOOSNAM is listed as..... Princess of Wales Own - Yorkshire Regiment - 6th Btn (att'd to 4th Btn) Lieutenant KIA 4/6/15 Les. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 27 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2004 Thanks to all for your interest. "The man who died twice" sounds intriuging, must be a story behind this. Les, Cross of Sacrifice also lists him as Yorkshire Regiment but as I mentioned earlier there is no mention of him in the regimental history. Hopefully someone will know the facts. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eviltaxman Posted 27 December , 2004 Share Posted 27 December , 2004 Bob, The plot thickens. If you suss it out, please me know... I've been digging around the web and can't find a thing. Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southafricawargraves Posted 27 December , 2004 Share Posted 27 December , 2004 I photographed the entire Helles Memorial two years ago and I just went looking for his name on the addenda panels and can't find. So unless he was added in the last two years he isn't on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 27 December , 2004 Share Posted 27 December , 2004 It appears that 5 officers from the 4th Worcesters were killed in the same battle on 4th June 1915. At the same time 3 officers were reported missing, one of these 2nd Lt. D. Graninger Jones was later confirmed killed. Possibly at this time Lt. Woosnam was presumed KiA. Anyone from the Gallipoli Association with some back copies of the magazine ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 27 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2004 Ralph, The fact that he is on the Helles Memorial came from the CWGC site, but have'nt seen it for myself. However I have seen his name on the Yorkshire panels at the Menin Gate. This has got me puzzled. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 28 December , 2004 Share Posted 28 December , 2004 (edited) Many thanks for the pointer Myrtle The article on the man who died twice was by J. M. Brown and appeared in ‘The Gallipolian’ No.103 just last winter Brown was doing his research on this in 2001 so it must have been then or shortly after that the CWGC added Woosnam to their list for Helles and this also explains why he is missing for Walker’s book which I think is from the 1980s. Brown says that Woosnam returned to England from Africa five months after the start of the war and was [per a letter] at Devenport with his regiment on 30th April 1915. He died at Krithia on 4th June 1915 with the Worcesters, so his transfer to the Green Howards must have been very brief indeed, but in the chaos of war, just long enough for the records to become confused. If Bob needs a copy of the article then I will be very happy to supply; just let me know Bob By the way, does this mean that an unidentified man now lies at Ypres? Regards Michael D.R. Edited 28 December , 2004 by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 28 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2004 Michael, Would very much like to see the article if you could be so kind. As for the Menin Gate inscription perhaps Terry will know the position? Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 28 December , 2004 Share Posted 28 December , 2004 Bob, I’ve sent you a PM about the copy of the article The Yorkshire angle is not covered to any great extent by Mr Brown and how this confusion arose is a puzzle. I can quite see how during a war a lot of new faces appear in the mess and you cannot put a name to each one, but I would have thought that the Adjutant must have counted: Officers gone over the top = X then some time later, Officers came back = Y If Woosnam was not the name of the chap who died at Ypres, then who was he? Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 28 December , 2004 Share Posted 28 December , 2004 Michael Thanks for information. It's an interesting puzzle. Bob & Michael Please let us know what turns up regarding this story. Regards Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 30 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 30 December , 2004 Just had a look at his medal card and it gives, Lt-Worcester Regt Captain-East African Intelligence Department Lt-Yorkshire Regt. Michael is kindly sending me the article. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 30 December , 2004 Share Posted 30 December , 2004 Bob, Until you get the article let me repeat here what it says of his service 4 December 1899 embodied into militia 6 March 1900 commissioned 2nd Lt in 3rd Batt. Welsh Regt [and on his way to SA] 27 July 1901 to 2nd Batt. Worcestershire Regt “took part in operations in South Africa 1900-1902; first as Railway Staff Officer, subsequently in the O. R. C.” 28 April 1902 sailed from SA 2 October 1903 resigned from full-time army service In 1914 he was working in East Africa when war broke out Following his earlier experience with the army in SA he is taken on by the Intelligence Dept, given the rank of Captain, and he organises bands of men to keep an eye on the border with Deutch Ost-Africa Since 1903 he was on the Worcestershire Regt.’s reserve with rank of 2nd Lt And in early 1915 wanting something more active than border patrols in East Africa He persuaded the Colonial Office to let him rejoin the 2nd Worcs; he was hoping for France, but ended up at Gallipoli Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 30 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 30 December , 2004 Michael, Thanks for the summary. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 30 December , 2004 Share Posted 30 December , 2004 Bob, You’ve got a real tricky one here. I can imagine a situation where an over-stressed [or perhaps under-attentive] clerk in a sort of Bermuda triangle formed by East Africa/the Colonial Office/the War Office may have put down the name of the wrong regiment on one of his forms, but I still cannot see how he came to be recorded as KiA in the wrong theatre! Surely the system never worked backwards did it? As in; “He has died” “Who was he with?” “The Green Howards” “Where were they then?” “Ypres” “Oh well, that must be where he died then!” Regards puzzled Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 30 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 30 December , 2004 Know what you mean Michael, can't get my head round this at all! Hoping Terry might be able to assist with an explanation? Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 30 December , 2004 Share Posted 30 December , 2004 Interesting that Lt Woosnam does not appear to be listed on the Worcestershire Regiment Roll of Honour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 31 December , 2004 Share Posted 31 December , 2004 That’s interesting Myrtle And I find it a little strange, as Mr. Brown had the full cooperation of the Worcestershire Regiment Museum Trust in his researches. The copies of papers provided by them included “extracts out of the regimental history that [showed] he was killed on 4 June 1915 at the Third Battle of Krithia.” Brown’s article goes on to tell how a relative was traced and they in turn obtained a copy of the Army Death Certificate, which I think must have been the piece of evidence which allowed the CWGC to add Woosnam’s name to the Helles Memorial. There is also a family plaque in St.Idloes Church, Llanidloes, Powys which includes “Richard Bowen Woosnam, only son of Bowen Pottinger Woosnam, born 1880, killed at Gallipoli 1915” It would be interesting to hear exactly what the Green Howards have on record which contributed to the original error. It was the Worcestershire Museum who suggested to Mr Brown that he contact the Green Howards, so this confusion must have been known about for some time before he became involved c.2001. Brown received a reply from Yorkshire stating that their record showed “He was serving with our 4th Bn when he was killed in action on 4th June 1915 near Ypres.” However the Death Certificate evidence must have quashed that. Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 31 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 31 December , 2004 Michael, Interesting the reply he got back from the Yorkshires. Will check again what I have on the 4th battalion for the time around that date. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 31 December , 2004 Share Posted 31 December , 2004 Bob This was not an uncommon error - a name being put on the wrong memorial. There is only one CWGC commemoration for your R B Woosnam - Helles Memorial. The fact that he may have originally been put on the Menin Gate does not matter. That inscription has officially 'ceased to exist' and will be removed when that particular panel is renewed. The database record is the only official record of the place of commemoration and it often takes the stonework some years to catch up. However, his name does appear in the original 1926 CWGC register for the Menin Gate as 6th Bn attd 4th, Yorkshire Regt. So it is a very long standing error - if error it be. Oddly, I have pointed out two or three errors to CWGC this year (discovered by a fellow Forum member) which resulted in names being removed (officially) from the Helles Memorial. They were duplications as the men actually had graves elsewhere in the Mediterranean area! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 31 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 31 December , 2004 Terry, Thanks for that, I had searched the Menin Gate on CWGC and he is not listed although I know his name is still on the gate and appreciate that his official recognition is Helles. Interestingly I have just come across an article on the Worcesters website concerning the 4th battalion at the 3rd Battle of Krithia and R B Woosnam actually gets a mention saying that he was among the "missing" for that day. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 2 January , 2005 Share Posted 2 January , 2005 Interestingly I have just come across an article on the Worcesters website concerning the 4th battalion at the 3rd Battle of Krithia and R B Woosnam actually gets a mention saying that he was among the "missing" for that day. Bob I also found the same article but am surprised that Lt. Woosnam is not mentioned on the Worcestershire Regiment Roll of Honour. Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 2 January , 2005 Share Posted 2 January , 2005 Michael, Interesting the reply he got back from the Yorkshires. Will check again what I have on the 4th battalion for the time around that date. Bob. But the 4 Yorkshires never served abroad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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