Unknown RFA Stafford buried Artillery Wood Cemetery

[jay dubaya]

A Graves Registration report for Artillery Wood Cemetery contains the details RFA Stafford UBS 30/10/17. His grave doesn't appear to be a concentration one so I assume he died at a nearby ADS without his discs or any other form of ID other than he was connected to the Stafford RFA TF. A search of CWGC gives 77 results for the RFA on that date and several are commemorated on memorials to the missing. Dvr 687062 William Mansell D/285 RFA was reported KiA, His SDGW entry records him born in Stafford and enlisted Wolverhampton and several of his service papers survive which show an enlistment into the 3rd North Midland Brigade (Stafford) RFA during November 1914 with the service number 1569. On 13/02/17 he was posted to 285th Bde RFA where he remained until his death. The CRA diary for the 57th DA confirm their presence in the right area at the time of his death. I feel convinced the UBS in grave I F 14 is that of William Mansell but would greatly appreciate the thoughts of forum members

 

J

[thetrenchrat22]

I visited artillery wood in September and visited the grave.  

 

This case is one of couple I was going to look at.  

 

Does the 285th Bde RFA have a secondary title 

[jay dubaya]

Without my notes at present but I believe it’s the original 2nd or 3rd West Lancs Bde

[John_Hartley]

The difficulty of persuading CWGC of an ID in these circumstances is to prove that there is no other candidate. Does the Graves Registration documentation specify what the evidence was for the Stafford connection?

 

How many of the "missings" is it possible to eliminate as not credibly being buried at Artillery Wood?   I'm guessing that the burial in Plot 1 (assuming that this was the original group of burials) suggests that this was a wartime burial, rather than later concentrations which should help to narrow things down.

[thetrenchrat22]

If you were to looking at all the RFA missing on that day question and plot where the units were.  

 

It it may be possible to identify the UBS, just be location of the units 

[jay dubaya]

Yes, the graves resting in Plot I are the original wartime burials and end with F 22 with the UBS RFA Stafford at F 9 (not F 14 as I posted above), no specific evidence is noted and RFA Stafford appears under regiment that all other than UBS and the date of death. Can we assume this soldier was never exhumed and a cross bearing those particulars marked the grave - were unknown burials in established cemeteries exhumed post war to search for identification?  

There appears to be 16 names of 'missing' from the total of 77 who died on 30/10/1917 and all are commemorated at Tyne Cot and Mansell being the only casualty from the 285th Bde on that day and the only one that I can see with a Stafford connection - all 16 are listed in SDGW. The brigade WD puts the battery around 2 miles from Artillery Wood Cemetery, this can also be said for several other brigades of the 'missing'. The 57th DFAs were along the Pilkem to Langemarck road but I have found nothing to support my reference to an ADS being at AWC other than it being a cemetery on a known evacuation route with a Decauville link very close by - would those wounded who died whilst being transported to the ADS be buried en route?

 

 

[John_Hartley]

6 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

I have found nothing to support my reference to an ADS being at AWC

If any forum member knows the details of this immediate area it will be Aurel Sercu. Suggest dropping him a PM.

[jay dubaya]

Thanks for that John, PM sent

[Aurel Sercu]

Jay Dubaya,

 

And standing at this headstone this morning 9.30 a.m. I was wondering : Could this man be .... ?

(The sun was in the right position, my left shoulder, but ... it was not shining, prevented from doing so by a high mist. And when I passed by again a little after noon, 1 p.m. it was shining indeed. But ... already on the back of the headstones ! I often wish the Boezinge sun was more co-operative. Two days ago it was, though, and a nice orange, thanks to the Sahara and ... fires in Portugal  ...)

 

More photos coming your way soon after this. (Full headstone, the 'neighbours' of the UBS, the whole row, ...)

 

As to an ADS ... I don't know. I have never seen a name or number of one near Artillery Wood Cem. I always assumed there was an ADS soon after the Guards crossed the Canal and advanced to Pilkem and Langemark (31 July 1917), but I'm afraid that's all ...

 

Just this. You wrote: "Can we assume this soldier was never exhumed and a cross bearing those particulars marked the grave - were unknown burials in established cemeteries exhumed post war to search for identification?  

Interesting, for I recently asked the same question concerning graves in Talana Farm Cemetery ... Like : how come that this Known soldier was crossed out and replaced by an Unknown, or vice versa ?! Personally I don't think they ever were exhumed  ... Is there a chance that years after their death there would be clearer signs of identification than the day they were buried ? Yet, when a wooden marker had become almost illegible, who knows... If anyone knows the answer ...

 

You also wrote: "The brigade WD puts the battery around 2 miles from Artillery Wood Cemetery," Is the WD more specific than this. Does it mention placenames or trench map co-ordinates. (I am just being curious.  ;-)  )

 

[thetrenchrat22]

Looking through different cemeteries, I would say that he was buried as a known soldier but over the years the details on the cross had faded.  

 

Enough for some of the details to be missing but for some to be legibly.  

 

As how would someone know the regiment and date of death if it was a complete unknown brought into the cemetery 

 

as there are couple of Graves in the same cemetery where a date is just known 

[jay dubaya]

Some detail from the 285th Bde WD which runs from 6am - 6am which confuses the casualties somewhat. Brigade HQ at U29.a.00.95, 5 guns of D (How) Bty at U29.b.50.70 and 1 guns U23.c.30.00. Casualties from 28th October - 1st November A/285 1 killed, 1 wounded. B/285 3 killed, 9 wounded. C/285 1 wounded. D/285 2 killed - (Mansell the man in question and Gnr 177772 Wright killed on 28th and at buried Bard Cottage). The diary also notes that between 29th and 31st the battery lines were subject to severe hostile HE and gas shelling. Regarding the 57th DFAs I need to go back and check as it appears the artillery had been detached from the division.

I'm under the impression that since this appears to be a wartime burial the details of the grave marker would have been noted by the GRUs earlier rather than later. I've been thinking of what could possibly have been the identifying features to just say RFA Stafford, shoulder titles seem the most obvious since he first enlisted in the T/RFA/Stafford, he had transferred to the 285th prior to going overseas, so why would he have these on his person when he was serving with a T/RFA/W.Lancashire unit, unless of course he retained them in a pocket. A thought that has come to mind is that he left the battery positions severely wounded and died en route to the ADS, he was then left to be buried at the nearest cemetery - a known evacuation route passed within yards of Artillery Wood Cemetery as illustrated by an AMDS map dated October 1917. When he is eventually buried all ID other than what we know is missing and so the grave is marked as we see on the GRU report dated January 1921, the body wasn't exhumed to look for any further ID, why would they. I will contact CWGC regarding the possibility of an earlier GRU report which may shed some further light on the ID

I like the atmospherics on the photos Aurel, thank you for taking a jaunt out there and yes I've noted the UBS resting next door....another anomaly for another day. I will be in touch soon regarding the TMBs

 

Jon

 

[John_Hartley]

Jon

 

My only other thought is to see if there are any early photos of the cemetery that might give a clue. You never know  - there might be one of the right row. 

 

John

[Aurel Sercu]

Trenchrat

You wrote: "I would say that he was buried as a known soldier but over the years the details on the cross had faded.  Enough for some of the details to be missing but for some to be legibly.  

I often wondered in similar cases (related to Talana Farm Cemetery) if during the war lists were made registering distinctly the names etc. of burials, and asked in a Topic in the GWF.  One of the answers :" Maybe, if a chaplain or so... But the question is : what happened to these lists, and where are they?..."

 

Jon,

I don't know enough about Artillery, but as William Mansell was a  Driver, when wounded or killed, he could have been "anywhere" ?

 

John,

If I ever had seen an old detailed photo of Artillery Wood Cemetery, with the wooden markers, I certainly would have it. But so far nothing. And if ever one of that kind turns up ... !

 

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Jon,

 

It's not that I want to hijack your Topic, but this may be interesting to others. And certainly me.  :-)

This is a fragment of the Graves Registration Report Form (CWGC).

It shows "your man", William Mansell (?), and three "neighbours".

The man next to "William Mansell", the UBS, first was identified (when buried) as Private C. Pooley.

But later the name was deleted and replaced by "Unknown D.L.I."

 

My questions are:

1. On what was this correction based ? (In one case I researched I found that the corrected man had survived. I have not checked  for C. Pooley yet.)

2. When was this correction ? The document has, at the bottom:

      Entered 17   2/21

     Slips checked  AE  22.3.21

Are these two dated related to the correction, or do you think the correction Pooley > Unknown is older?

3. And what does the handwritten  3/26470 mean? I suppose it is the document motivating the correction?

(This does not help you, Jon, but I have often wondered in other pieces of research I have done.)

 

Aurel

P.S. Added 5 minutes later. I've just found Pte Charles Pooley is buried in Bard Cottage Cem. V.B.5.

 

 

Edited 19 October , 2017 by Aurel Sercu
Something added in P.S.

[jay dubaya]

Not hijacking at all Aurel, it adds to the wider picture. I had clocked that Pooley was moved? to Bard Cottage and now we have a DLI UBS in grave 8 (another wartime burial with a mid/late October death). At the Armistice the cemetery contained 141 graves which included 6 UBS and all appeared to have crosses and I suspect none of the burials were exhumed post war. I'm still on the hunt for a FA that may have been based there at the time, it's got to be worth a look - a good day may produce a list of those they buried at Artillery Wood.

 

Jon

[Aurel Sercu]

Jon,

Do you mean that Pooley was initially buried in Artillery wood Cemetery, and then (when?) moved to Bard Cottage Cem.?

Or shall we say : at Artillery Wood it first was thought that the man buried in I.F.8 was Pooley, but as it turned out that this Pooley was in Bard Cottage Cem, it was decided that this grave I.F.8 in Artillery Wood Cem. could not possibly be  Pooley, so that name was corrected to into "Unknown D.L.I.". Correct ?

 

And I would be glad if I knew when this was decided. Is that the date(s) at the bottom of the Graves Registration Report Form. (That part that I am posting here.)

 

Aurel