Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 16 October , 2017 Share Posted 16 October , 2017 (edited) Dear GWFs, Certain pundits have steadfastly reckoned that (Es nicht sein Kann, was nicht sein Darf), because Lt B. L. Herdon's MIC shows only a GSM S. Persia entry, he therefore had no BWM or Victory. However, his military career was somewhat convoluted - going from IARO to IA, then to AIRO. Born in Simla, 13 Mar 1898, and educated in India, Herdon had service with the Vols., before being commnd into the IARO on 5 May 1917. This was followed by Young Officers' Instruction at the school in Subathu - before joining 127 Baluch: attached on 18 Aug 1917. 127 Baluch were on operations in S. Persia prior to 11 Nov 1918, and, of course, some time thereafter (Herdon having been promoted to Lieutenant, meanwhile). Herdon was appointed to the Indian Army (IA) on 5 Feb 1919. He subsequently qualified for the IGS and two clasps, having been T/Capt and an R.T.O., Waziristan Force, 1921 (this not shown in later 'War Services' listings... Interestingly, he retired from the IA as a Lieut., on 24 Jul 1923 (despite having been promoted Capt., 1 Feb 1923!). Herdon was 'Called to Army Service on 1 Apr 1928', as a Capt., AIRO... Hands up those GWFs who agree (or not!) that BWM and Victory medals were on the cards for the wretched Herdon (later MBE)? Kindest regards, Kim. Edited 17 December , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 16 October , 2017 Share Posted 16 October , 2017 (edited) Quote Hands up those GWFs who agree (or not!) that BWM and Victory medals were on the cards for the wretched Herdon (later MBE) He would not get a BWM or VM if he had never left his 'native shores' for service and/or had not served within a defined theatre of war. Quote 127 Baluch were on operations in S. Persia prior to 11 Nov 1918, and, of course, some time thereafter (Herdon having been promoted to Lieutenant, meanwhile). Was it a recognised theatre of war at the time ? Craig Edited 16 October , 2017 by ss002d6252 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 16 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2017 Dear Craig, Thanks for responding. Not having left his 'native shores' is a worry for the BWM. However, as far as S. Persia is concerned, for the Victory, I found this in the 1939 Indian Army List. Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 16 October , 2017 Share Posted 16 October , 2017 18 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: Dear Craig, Thanks for responding. Not having left his 'native shores' is a worry for the BWM. However, as far as S. Persia is concerned, for the Victory, I found this in the 1939 Indian Army List. Kindest regards, Kim. If he had proceeded to a recognised theatre of war then that was sufficient to qualify for the BWM through that route. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 16 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2017 (edited) Dear Craig, Yes, quite. I have also asked my researcher to look for another type of MIC - for example the so-called Indian Army ones, which are slightly different, but no reply, so far. B. L. Herdon has been treated somewhat unevenly by the Indian Army List - for example, there is the void about his Great War service, followed by yet another void regarding his S. Persia service, but contrarily they announced his Waziristan 1921-22 service! This, despite the S. Persia service having been well-documented. On the other hand, I believe the Officers themselves contributed these details, which makes it even more odd... However, his Army career was zig-zag, and somewhat unconventional, as already indicated. The fact that he was decorated in 1932, indicated that his services were valued, at least. He was also somewhat of a linguist, and had Poems published (later in book form, 1936: "Shisha - A Poet's Mirror"), and was 1938-40 editor of an Indian Urdu-language magazine... Kindest regards, Kim. Edited 16 October , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 17 October , 2017 Share Posted 17 October , 2017 21 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: ...before joining 127 Baluch: attached on 18 Aug 1917. 127 Baluch were on operations in S. Persia prior to 11 Nov 1918, and, of course, some time thereafter (Herdon having been promoted to Lieutenant, meanwhile). Possibly, although 127 Baluch were on operations prior to 11 Nov 1918, Lt B. L. Herdon was not. Perhaps he remained in India , at the Regimental Depot, or was involved with recruiting within the relevant region in India. I believe that before an Indian Army officer could be posted his regiment on active service, it was necessary to pass exams in the regimental language. Possibly this would take a period of time? When I searched the National Archives website for the Medal Index cards, only one search result was shown, which I think would be the same as the MIC shown on Ancestry. Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 17 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2017 (edited) Dear All, and Maureen, Hmmm. All very disquieting. I will ask my researcher (who has had a quick look at them) to send me copies of the - apparently scrappy - relevant war diary entries for 127 Baluch. One asks oneself: just when did Lieut Herdon join 127 Baluch in S. Persia? As far as language qualification was concerned, Herdon is shown as better than most in this respect, having a (207a) behind his name in the July 1918 IARO list, which was not there in the July 1917 IARO one (Hindustani colloquial). His remaining at the Depot or being sent on Recruiting is a distinct possibility - but also speaks for a BWM qualification... As I said at the beginning: 'Es nicht sein Kann, was nicht sein Darf'. In other words pundits have repeatedly said, here is Herdon's MIC: therefore no BWM and Victory. But these MICs are oftentimes missing completely (for Capt H. S. Crowley, IARO, attd 1/S&M, for example); or are incomplete, as in the case of Capt E. P. Yeates, IA, of 1/12/Pioneers. The latter had two MICs, both showing only BWM and Victory (yet he had the 1914-15 Star). Many thanks for all your expertise and contributions! Kindest regards, Kim. Edited 17 December , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 17 October , 2017 Share Posted 17 October , 2017 27 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: Dear All, and Maureen, Hmmm. All very disquieting. I will ask my researcher (who has had a quick look at them) to send me copies of the - apparently scrappy - relevant war diary entries for 127 Baluch. One asks oneself: just when did Lieut Herdon join 127 Baluch in S. Persia? As far as language qualification was concerned, Herdon is shown as better than most in this respect, having a (207a) behind his name in the July 1918 IARO list, which was not there in the July 1917 IARO one (Hindustani colloquial). His remaining at the Depot or being sent on Recruiting is a distinct possibility - but also speaks for a BWM qualification... As I said at the beginning: 'Was nicht sein Kann, was nicht sein Darf'. In other words pundits have repeatedly said, here is Herdon's MIC: therefore no BWM and Victory. But these MICs are oftentimes missing completely (for Capt H. S. Crowley, IARO, attd 1/S&M, for example); or are incomplete, as in the case of Capt E. P. Yeates, IA, of 1/12/Pioneers. The latter had two MICs, both showing only BWM and Victory (yet he had the 1914-15 Star). Many thanks for all your expertise and contributions! Kindest regards, Kim. If the process was like the British Army then it wasn't so much that the medals were missed, rather that they weren't applied for. Officers in the British Army had to apply for each of the medals to be issued, if they didn't then there's usually no record of them. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 17 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2017 Dear Craig, That's an idea! Perhaps one is searching for something that never existed? B. L. Herdon is not the first Officer whose trail has been beset with puzzles: H. S. Crowley was very similar. Yet others are an Open book with zero puzzle! Thanks for your welcome Input... Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 21 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 21 October , 2017 Dear All (and Maureen), I have found, in "Operations in Persia", some indication of the whereabouts of 1/127 Baluch, on and around the Armistice. which does not fit well for a Victory. (Notwithstanding the fact that a Victory named to Lieut B. L. Herdon has been sighted. I have not inspected it...) Ironically, his uncle is mentioned in the text... By the same token, I feel confident that B. L. Herdon - as did countless Volunteer officers languishing in India, for example - would have been in line for the BWM. Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 25 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2017 (edited) Dear All, Despite - or because of - all the to-ing and fro-ing regarding the niceties of the B. L. Herdon medal group, the current situation (blank BWM/Victory) is as shown. I may well yet have the group more overlapping on a less-wide booch, but that remains to be seen. Yet another Friend At Court has said that 127 Baluch arrived at Bushire before the cut-off date of 11 October 1918, although the extracts above tell a different story. Under the circumstances, I cannot fully enjoy, for example, the scarce S. PERSIA clasp, but this may change as time goes on. Apropos S. PERSIA: one of Herdon's brother-officers became Sir Charles Prior, KCIE (1896-1972). I have been unable to ascertain Bertram Lawrence Herdon's date of death, in UK: but perhaps a GWF expert at this sort of thing could manage to Do The Trick! (His mother died in 1949 at Newton Abbot, Devon...) Kindest regards, Kim. Edited 17 December , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 25 October , 2017 Share Posted 25 October , 2017 On 17/10/2017 at 19:56, Maureene said: I believe that before an Indian Army officer could be posted his regiment on active service, it was necessary to pass exams in the regimental language. Possibly this would take a period of time? I have located a reference which I was quoting from memory previously. "G. L. Tomkins… is acting as Adjutant at the Depot, 128th Pioneers, Meerut, prior to being taken on the strength. He writes: " I hope to get out to Mesopotamia eventually, but have to pass two language exams in Hindustani before they will let me go. There is just a chance of my going out sooner than usual, as the Pioneers do all the trench-digging and bombing out there... Reference: Page 59 The Denstonian July, 1916. No. 241. Vol. XL. No 4. .worldwar1schoolarchives.org From the Fibiwiki page https://wiki.fibis.org/w/128th_Pioneers Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 25 October , 2017 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2017 Dear Maureen, Many thanks for your continuing input: much appreciated! "The Denstonian" is a highly interesting and emotive journal, describing the type of Boy the school fielded - virtually all Officer Material... Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 18 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2017 Dear All, Just seen for sale to a Sepoy (later L/Naik) of 1-127 Baluchis: BWM, Victory; GSM S. PERSIA. Of course, one cannot compare the qualification for BWM/Victory to a Sepoy, 1-127 Baluch, with that of Lieut. B. L. Herdon, IARO attd 1-127 Baluch, but I must admit to being heartened when I saw it...! Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 24 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 24 November , 2017 Dear All, The saga continues. The Herdon medal group shown above has been returned to the mounters, to be re-mounted on a shorter brooch-bar. In the meantime, details of the 26 October 1932 Jubbulpore Investiture for his MBE has been discovered; the Central Chancery most kindly sending me a copy of the Index Card. Amusing is the 'Strong as possible parade': what would that have been - any suggestions? Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 24 November , 2017 Share Posted 24 November , 2017 1 hour ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: Dear All, The saga continues. The Herdon medal group shown above has been returned to the mounters, to be re-mounted on a shorter brooch-bar. In the meantime, details of the 26 October 1932 Jubbulpore Investiture for his MBE has been discovered; the Central Chancery most kindly sending me a copy of the Index Card. Amusing is the 'Strong as possible parade': what would that have been - any suggestions? Kindest regards, Kim. I'd presume it was army talk for ' make sure there's a decent turn out' Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 24 November , 2017 Share Posted 24 November , 2017 On 25/10/2017 at 21:29, Kimberley John Lindsay said: Dear All, Despite - or because of - all the to-ing and fro-ing regarding the niceties of the B. L. Herdon medal group, the current situation (blank BWM/Victory) is as shown Impressed ? Dont know how authentic it is Found on this website here Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 24 November , 2017 Share Posted 24 November , 2017 On 25/10/2017 at 21:29, Kimberley John Lindsay said: I have been unable to ascertain Bertram Lawrence Herdon's date of death, in UK: but perhaps a GWF expert at this sort of thing could manage to Do The Trick! Can't see a registration for his death in Engand & Wales, although the Free BMD and Ancestry lists don't really tally since about 1960. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 24 November , 2017 Share Posted 24 November , 2017 B L Herdon's V.M was listed for sale at Wellington Auctions in February 2016 Link to auction list Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 25 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2017 (edited) Dear All and Ray, Many thanks for the helpful feedback from all of you - most appreciated! I have once again asked my TNA researcher to have a look at the 1-127 Baluch war diary, in the hope of gaining some sort of indication, either way, regarding the landing of 1-127 Baluch at Bushire. As far as the Gone Walkabout Victory Medal (apparently engraved 'Lieut. B. L. Herdon' in large capitals), is concerned: the medal is probably now in Australia. Ironically, I almost certainly saw the Feb 2016 Wellington Auctions offering of the aforementioned Victory Medal, but had not yet "discovered" Herdon at that time. Typical! Of course, where there is a Victory, is also a British War Medal... Kindest regards, Kim. Edited 25 November , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 1 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 1 December , 2017 Dear All, Thanks very much for your sporting and helpful contributions. The Great War Forum is a magnificent creation, no doubt about it! As already reported, I have (once more) unleashed my TNA researcher onto the War Diaries of 1-127 Baluch. In the meantime, the Herdon group has been - after considerable chivvying on my part, not to mention expense - at last re-mounted to my satisfaction. The erased BWM and Victory remain contenscious, for obvious reasons, but there it is. Any further comment would be eagerly welcomed. Apparently Herdon was successfully employed in the 1930s with the Signal Training Centre (India), Jubbulpore - tiger country - and weighed 17 stone (whatever that is, in kilos: obviously overweight). He was latterly admitted to hospital, prior to retirement, in April 1933. How he was subsequently employed in India, I do not know, but he was recalled for the Second War... Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 11 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2017 Dear All, My TNA researcher has reported that 1) the 1-127 Baluch war diary is missing, and 2), he sadly found no Indian Army MIC for B. L. Herdon. I have consoled myself by ascribing to the theory that the erstwhile Lieut. Bertram Lawrence Herdon was too busy writing poetry, to apply for his Great War medals. Thanks, once again, for all your - much-needed - encouragement and suggestions. You are all a credit to the Great War Forum! Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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