28th April 1917 Battle of Arleux

[michelin36]

Hi I am new to this website and I am here after discovering my family tree which until recently as a result of a religious divide I knew very little about sadly. My great uncle Benjamin Charles Line 841087 died on the 28th April 1917 and is laid to rest at Arras memorial

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=124733144

The guy who undertook my family research discovered the attached, but little is known and I wondered if there are any means of finding out any more details as I have to go to visit the area out of respect. I would love to be able to locate where he was on that fateful day and go to visit the location as close where he was as I can. 

It would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks

Roger

 

 

GraveURL.txt

WarDiaryPart1of2.pdf

WarDiaryPart2of2.pdf

[jonbem]

Hi Roger and welcome

I'm sure one of the pals will soon come up with something.

I'll have a look further when i get home and see what I can find

 

regards

Jon

meanwhile.....

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/783057/line,-benjamin-charles/

 

[michelin36]

Hi Jon

Really appreciate that. I was amazed to fine I had 8 relative who partook and I knew nothing about it apart from one uncle James Line who always mentioned Ben. James served and survived. I wish he was still around so I could talk to him.

Thanks

[sajackr]

Welcome Roger,

If you type ARLEUX in the search field you will get a lot of old posts regarding the battle.

 

As recall nothing specific to RFA but details of the battle with maps of the area.

 

Good luck

Sajackr

Edited 10 October , 2017 by sajackr

[jonbem]

Medal Index Card on Ancestry, if you have access, is HERE

[jonbem]

The War Diary is on the National Archives for a fee HERE

Reference:	WO 95/1923/4
Description:	71 Brigade Royal Field Artillery. War Diaries for July - Sept 1917 not included
Date:	1915 July - 1919 May

you might also get it on Ancestry

[michelin36]

Thank you Jon, much appreciated. 

Gunner Benjamin Charles Line (your great uncle)

Regiment, Rank & Regimental Number: 71^st Brigade, D Battery, Regimental Number 841087

Regiment: Royal Horse Artillery and Royal Field Artillery

                  Regiment Information:

The Royal Field Artillery
This was the largest of the three units. Many brigades started the war with 15 pounder field guns, ironically a development of an original Krupps design from Germany. In 1916, batteries started being issued with the improved 18 pounder field gun. A field gun fired its shells on a low trajectory - generally the target was in sight. Shells were usually high explosive or shrapnel as required. By 1916, an artillery brigade consisted of four batteries each of six guns. The first three, A B and C, were field guns and the fourth D battery had 4.5" howitzers at their disposal. The howitzer lobbed its shell high into the air so that it dropped more directly down onto its target. This meant that the target could be behind obstacles, perhaps a wood or a hill.

Enlistment Place: Birmingham

Date of Death: 28^th April 1917

Place of Death: Arleaux – During the Battle of Arras, specifically the Battle of Arleaux:

                  Battle of Arleux (28–29 April 1917)

The principal objective of the attack was the need to sustain a supporting action tying down German reserves to assist the French offensive against the plateau north of the Aisne traversed by the Chemin des Dames. Haig reported, “With a view to economising my troops, my objectives were shallow and for a like reason and also in order to give the appearance of an attack on a more imposing scale, demonstrations were continued southwards to the Arras-Cambrai Road and northwards to the Souchez River.”

At 04:25 on 28 April, British and Canadian troops launched the main attack on a front of about 8 mi (13 km) north of Monchy-le-Preux. The battle continued for most of 28 and 29 April, with the Germans delivering determined counter-attacks. The British positions at Gavrelle were attacked seven times with strong forces and on each occasion the German thrust was repulsed with great loss by the 63rd Division. The village of Arleux-en-Gohelle was captured by the 1st Canadian Division after hand-to-hand fighting and the 2nd Division (Major-General C. E. Pereira), made further progress in the neighbourhood of Oppy, Greenland Hill (37th Division) and between Monchy-le-Preux and the Scarpe (12th Division). (Source)

Burial Place: Arras Memorial (Source)

Extract from War diary the day of Gunner Benjamin’s death. You’ll notice no mention of his name, but this is due to the sheer amount of casualties during this time. The diary, however, does speak of D/71 (Benjamin’s regiment) and how the D/71 regiment was shelled throughout the days of the 28^th and 29^th April (the 28^th being the day Benjamin died) with 4.2 and 5.9s, and this refers to the Howitzer cannons (Source 1 & Source 2).

[RobertBr]

Roger

 

71st Brigade (not regiment) RFA along with 70 Brigade were the field artillery for the 15th (Scottish) Division.  To gain a better idea of the battle they fought at Arleux it is worth looking at the War Diaries for the Infantry Brigades/Battalions of the Division (See The Long Long Trail for details of the Division). RFA Brigade War Diaries can be detailed on one page and quite sparce on the next. Snippets from the Divisions War Diaries can add to your knowledge.

 

I heartily recommend a visit to the area but suggest you start near Vimy Ridge, take in the full battlefield and work your way down as far Arras. That way with the information you collect beforehand you will get a better feel for the events of the day(s).

 

Regards

 

Bob

 

PS On 28th March 1918 my Grandfather as part of D/281 Bde fought over the same ground during an offensive by the Germans.

[kenf48]

You seem to have most of the information but if you want to visit the ground there is trench map on this site where you can overlay a modern map I can't see Fosse Farm but other features mentioned in the diary are shown

http://maps.nls.uk/view/101464756

 

There is another site which gives a situation map for 27.4.1917

http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A72923

 

For information on how to read a trench map see

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battlefields/how-to-read-a-british-trench-map/

 

As noted above both the Division and Brigade Diaries list operation orders and sketch maps, e.g. If you have access to Ancestry 

here is the Divisional Barrage Map from the Op order here

 

A minor point he is commemorated on the Arras Memorial, he has no known grave.

 

Ken

 

 

 

[jonbem]

11 hours ago, kenf48 said:

I can't see Fosse Farm

there is a Les Fosses Farm on

http://maps.nls.uk/view/101464756

51B.SW.2 (Vis-en-Artois) N11.b.9.5

Scale: 1:10000   Edition: 6A   Published: September 1917
Trenches corrected to 30 August 1917

[Michelle Young]

You say he is laid to rest at Arras Memorial, but sadly it means he doesn't have a known grave. His name is inscribed on one of the panels at the Arras Memorial.

 

Michelle 

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, jonbem said:

there is a Les Fosses Farm on

http://maps.nls.uk/view/101464756

51B.SW.2 (Vis-en-Artois) N11.b.9.5

Scale: 1:10000   Edition: 6A   Published: September 1917
Trenches corrected to 30 August 1917

 

Well spotted!

 

Map reference in war diary posted above is N11.a.5 2 so the same grid square.

 

Ken

Edited 11 October , 2017 by kenf48

[jonbem]

47 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 

Well spotted!

 

Map reference in war diary posted above is N11.a.5 2 so the same grid square.

 

Ken

Had come a cross it before as my Great Uncle, Stanley Maurice Downs 3616 & S/23928 7th Cameron Highlanders, was missing/presumed near there and is also on the Arras Memorial

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, jonbem said:

Had come a cross it before as my Great Uncle, Stanley Maurice Downs 3616 & S/23928 7th Cameron Highlanders, was missing/presumed near there and is also on the Arras Memorial

 

At least I had the right map!  I see the Farm is no longer there on the overlay but there are a group of buildings nearby.

 

Interesting, there are a number of Cemeteries nearby but Guemappe  which was begun by the 15th(Scottish) Division has six unknowns.  There is a note, struck through on the Graves Registration document that Row 'E' was 'completely obliterated'.

 

There are a couple of squiggles on the McMasters situation map in the relevant grid square, could these be marking gun emplacements?  

Even though my gfather was in the RFA I know very little about artillery, we need an expert!

 

Ken

 

 

[jonbem]

22 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

At least I had the right map!  I see the Farm is no longer there on the overlay but there are a group of buildings nearby

on g**g*emaps streetview it has a sign for "frites", looks like not much activity now though.

Edited 11 October , 2017 by jonbem

[kenf48]

Not frying tonight then!

 

Ken

[michelin36]

Thanks to everyone for your contributions, it is much appreciated. The maps are really helpful. As I am new to this could anyone tell me is there anyway of finding out where D/71 was on the 28th April? 

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, michelin36 said:

Thanks to everyone for your contributions, it is much appreciated. The maps are really helpful. As I am new to this could anyone tell me is there anyway of finding out where D/71 was on the 28th April? 

 

 

See post 9 above.

 

The war diary you posted gave the position of the Brigade on the 24th April as 'Near Monchy at N11a52"   There are 'ditto' marks then through to the 30th April so that was the position of the Brigade.  We have interpreted this as map reference for the unit as Map 51B.SW2 N.11 a.5.2. (Nr Monchy-le Preux). In the text for the 24th it is stated " Brigade moved up to positions near LE FOSSES FARM'. 

 

The position of each battery is not shown although on the 25th two batteries were moved as they were coming under fire, however the Brigade is still plotted at the same map reference throughout this period.

 

So if you go to the NLS link posted above and in the top left of the map you will see square 4 in the corner, next to it is square 5 and below that square N.11 (the diarist did not bother with the sheet number as they probably all knew the map they were using.   Bear in mind this map is dated August 1917, the McMasters map is a position map for April but McMasters does not have the overlay facility.   Now go to the LLT link on how to read the map.  You will see it says N11 is a square measuring 1000 yards by 1000 yards.  That square is then further divided into a twby two matrix of four squares.  These are a-d clockwise on the map so 'a' is the upper left square.  This area is 500 yards by 500 yards.   As explained on the LLT this can be further broken down to give an exact position i.e.5.2.  On the example posted below the little tags on the line of the grid squares -5 being slightly larger.

 

I make the Brigade HQ located as shown by the star.  As Chris says on the LLT 'where do you make it?  It should be emphasised we don't know the exact position of each battery on the day he was killed.

 

If you go to the NLS site and overlay a modern map you will see this area is fields but the road is still there.  Jonbem did a street view at post 15 which is the building closest to Les Fosses Farm shown on present day maps.  If you intend to visit the area and that building is still there it seems as good a place as any to start your walk to the SouthWest.  You will shortly come up against the motorway, or Auto route due Nord.

 

Ken

 

 

 

Edited 11 October , 2017 by kenf48
Grammar

[kenf48]

And here is the map at 60% Overlay You can play with the slider on the NLS page to try and plot the position of the 71 Brigade HQ

 

Le Fosses Farm is just visible by the capital R on the present day map (R= Route Nationale)

 

Ken

Edited 11 October , 2017 by kenf48

[michelin36]

Ken thank you so so much. You are a star. I will let you know how I get on. 

[jonbem]

As a bit more idea on the action near Fosse Farm in 1918, my great uncle was in the 7th Bn Cameron Highlanders and he was missing presumed dead 27/3/18

The war diary is on Ancestry here March 1918 starts image 365 of 429.

see also detail of the Retiral from Monchy, March 1918

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/scotreg/camerons/7thbattcameron00sanduoft.pdf

bottom of page 114 (image 124) for ref. to la Fosse Farm and the caves below. Also mention of an electric lighting plant at Fosse Farm on next page.

 

What caves and such were here a year earlier needs further investigation

[jonbem]

and a bit more Fosses Farm info

[michelin36]

Thanks to all for the info. It is all really interesting and helpful in trying to piece together life.

Much appreciated

[David Porter]

On 10/10/2017 at 16:24, michelin36 said:

Benjamin Charles Line 841087

 

Roger,

 

Benjamin's number indicates that he was a gunner in 532nd Battery RFA formed on July 25, 1916 at No. 3 Reserve Brigade TF, Bulford.

This battery embarked at Southampton on November 10, 1916, disembarked at Havre on November 11, 1916.

It joined 72 Bde on November 16, 1916 as 532 (H)/72 then was divided between D (H)/70 and D (H)/71 on January 22, 1917.

No. 3 Reserve Brigade TF, Bulford was the home of the 3rd Line brigades of the Wessex and South Midland Divisions.

[michelin36]

Hi David

Thank you for your input, that is really helpful. 

In your experience do you think I will ever be able to find out more info or regiment photos? or is there a paid researcher that would be able to find out more?

Im finding this all very addictive.

A big thanks

Roger