bkristof Posted 5 January , 2005 Share Posted 5 January , 2005 Kristof, it is the second time you publish this letter. The first time I didn't feel like reacting on it. I suppose it is the only thing you can tell. Well now I will react on it. 1st >> are 4th year students archeological specialist who can tell what is valuable, important and what is genuine WW1???? 2nd >> Real acheologists ALSO use digging machines! No doubt about that. There are always mistakes made in every kind of diggin' up, even when professionals do it. But Bayernwald was a very difficult situation as the previous owner made a lot of repro trenches. They were mixed with the real stuff. who can tell what is good what not. Your students? 3th>> This is a nice example of digging politics. Sesation, critics, blaming eachother because 1 doesn't like what the other is doing. I am glad i am not associated with such a group at all and like that i can stay neutral and observe it. To me everybody can dig, as long it is done with the proper respect and research. 4th >> the most ideal situation should be a democratic guiding by profs for all different digging groups in Flanders. But then some groups can no longer "claim" a find, material, the honour, the publicity or even sell the found stuff. i hope i didn't stir to much in the boiling pot on this delicate subject. Greets, kristof Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugout Posted 5 January , 2005 Share Posted 5 January , 2005 Kristof, From the anger in your mail I conclude that you feel yourself attacked personally. I don't like to make this forum in to a place to fight personal vendetta's. Let us stay with the facts. 1st Yes, you are completely right. Those students are no archaeological specialists, are you or the peoples who did the digging? What's your graduation? Is all what the students wrote a lie? 2nd Do archaeologists use digging machines to pull out things thing like drains, shaft caps, …? 3rh "I am glad I am not associated……" Please let us stay honest with ourselves . "To me everybody can dig…" I can assure you, not everybody can. Let the professionals their job and if they need volunteers, they will ask for it. 4th "democratic guiding" Great id. Go for it Kristof. "But then some groups can no longer……" Will you please specify who you blame the steeling and selling archaeological artefacts? I don't think anyone has any message on this kind of arguing. We have to work to conserve and catalogue our WW1 heritage on a professional way and by professional people. Our past may not be an obstacle to build on our future. A perfect harmony with respect for the past and possibilities for the future is surely possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 5 January , 2005 Share Posted 5 January , 2005 "I am glad I am not associated……" Please let us stay honest with ourselves . "To me everybody can dig…" I can assure you, not everybody can. Let the professionals their job and if they need volunteers, they will ask for it. OK point me out in what sort of group I should be in, You know it better than me!!! I never was in one as far as I know. I talk to diggers, abaf, abac or whatever. I don't care at all. And i am not interested to dig myself! "democratic guiding" Great id. Go for it Kristof. i am to busy with other projects + it doesn't really is my case. "But then some groups can no longer……" Will you please specify who you blame the steeling and selling archaeological artefacts? Ask around and you will know. You will not catch me starting an incedent, neither will you. There are people enough who did that for you... "From the anger in your mail I conclude that you feel yourself attacked personally." What?? hahahahahaha Not at all, i have better things to do. The only thing i have with Bayernwald is that i am a regular visitor. It is just aanoying me that as soon someone tries do do something hunderds have critics, 1% positive all the rest tearing it down. If you should know me, you shouldn't said that. By the way, no one saw me agry here (yet). "Those students are no archaeological specialists, are you or the peoples who did the digging? What's your graduation? Is all what the students wrote a lie?" Did I said that? I just suggested a misinterpretation.... "Do archaeologists use digging machines to pull out things thing like drains, shaft caps, …?" O yes they do, i once saw a medieval exclavation at Kortemark... They demolished "accedently" a medieval cellar with their crane. It were por's from Leuven !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domsim Posted 5 January , 2005 Share Posted 5 January , 2005 Just to echo Kristof's point about machines, here in Britain JCB's, Poclain diggers etc. are routinely used in archaeological excavations. In a perfect world all the topsoil would be stripped by hand and sieved for finds but this is simply too slow and costly (I helped strip topsoil from a site by hand once, the trench was 20 metres square and the topsoil was about 40 centimetres deep-it took about 2 weeks to strip it and I never want to do it again!) The fact is a well maintained machine with an experienced driver being supervised by an experienced field archaeologist will do a very quick and clean job and no archaeology will be lost. I do not know the circumstances of this letter but I have agree with Kristof that 4th students are not the most qualified group to criticise archaeological techniques. Whoops there goes another can of worms! Cheers Dominic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frie Posted 5 January , 2005 Share Posted 5 January , 2005 The letter from a Flemish schoolclass who helped on two times in the afternoon to fill-sandbags. They did a good job. They were in no way involved in the digging. When they came to help with the sandbags everything was almost done. The only thing they saw was the digging to lay bare a second mine-shaft (Bertha...) (2m under the ground-level) who was found at last. They made in the class-room a very simple essay. They have no competency at all, because they know nothing about history at all. Thats the final thing I want to say, because I dont want to ridicule .................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugout Posted 5 January , 2005 Share Posted 5 January , 2005 Hello everyone, Let us not be misunderstand. I do not decelerate that a digging machine does not belong on a archeological site. It is indeed very useful to gain time on the ruff work, but you don’t use it to pull out a shaftcap. Those things you do by hand. Ask around and you will know. You will not catch me starting an incedent, neither will you. There are people enough who did that for you... (Kristof Blieck) Again blaming people of things. I think you already know that I like facts en not tells. So If you like to sound believable to other people, facts please…. names please. I also cant understand how people can invite those boys and girls form school, for simple labor, and say later on that they are incompetent. We have to stimulate those young people and make then interested in our history, not de-motivate them. They will be glad to gear it. We are going way far of topic I think. The point is, let the pros do their job. You can always give assistance, but stay of our heritage without proper guiding. Where are the archeological reports; geo-references, prospection drawings, relict databases….. of all that amateur dig work? I’m sure there are some amateurs who have a lot of know how and experience, but most of them haven’t the necessary skills, schooling, background …. You cant deny this. What academic work has been published about the volunteer digging during the last years? I think you don’t need one hand to count them. And this is what I want to show. Once a dig is done, the information is lost for ever. So please stay off it, or do it on the proper way, in order and under guiding of specialists. Greets, Kristof J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 5 January , 2005 Share Posted 5 January , 2005 We are going way far of topic I think. The point is, let the pros do their job. You can always give assistance, but stay of our heritage without proper guiding. Where are the archeological reports; geo-references, prospection drawings, relict databases….. of all that amateur dig work? I’m sure there are some amateurs who have a lot of know how and experience, but most of them haven’t the necessary skills, schooling, background …. You cant deny this. What academic work has been published about the volunteer digging during the last years? I think you don’t need one hand to count them. And this is what I want to show. Where do you live??? Mars? If you are Belgian, go to a good liberary, you will be amased how many works that their are published the last decade on that topic. Every group who does some diggin' published several works on their exclavations, threir research. I don't gonna call titles or i am going to chose sides again. But their are plenty of books, studies, articles... Even about the places mentioned in this topic. Let the pors do their job... OK where are they? Working 20 years to dig up 2 bullets and a piece of schrapnell at the end of the A19 ??? There isn't time enough for that! Efficiency that is what is needed, like i tried to point out before. I rest my case! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatterySergeantMajor Posted 5 January , 2005 Share Posted 5 January , 2005 Erwin, Just to say that I have read your posting. And that there are things that I understand, but other things that cannot really convince me. But as I had promised myself not to enter a debate ... Only this : I do not support the A19 extension, but I'm not really against it either. (There are pros and cons, and I am not an expert on environmental issues, traffic problems, agriculture, rural planning, etc.) But what I am against is some "false" arguments. E.g. the 'enormous' numbers of missing men that are quoted from time to time ("30,000 British men fell on Pilkem on 31/07/17") Or that the extension (3 or 4% of Pilkem Ridge area) would destroy Pilkem Ridge. Or that extending a motorway is a lack of respect to the fallen. If it is, then people who use this as an argument should never use the A19 motorway where it is now, northeast and east of Ypres : Zonnebeke, Beselare, Geluveld (Wieltje, Frezenberg, Polygon Wood). I have never met anyone who refuses to use the A19 or who feels guilty when using it because it goes right through a Great War battlefield. Of course, I know, battlefield preservation was not an issue 20 or 25 years ago. Yet ... But I'm afraid that saying that looks like I want to rouse a debate. And I don't. Or certainly do not want to enter one. Aurel Hi Aurel I do not intend to get mingled in the debate too far for now. There doesn't seem to be too much danger at the moment, so I'll keep my energy for later. I just hope that I could make clear that the combination of reasons makes the motorway unacceptable for me, and not just one reason. Erwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugout Posted 6 January , 2005 Share Posted 6 January , 2005 Hi again, Again blames, still no facts, still no names…. "But their are plenty of books, studies, articles…" There are indeed a few good academic works, but with academic works I don't mean articles or translated regiment diary's. "Working 20 years to dig up 2 bullets…. These remarks are from such a low level that I think that we better quit this discussion. Greets, Kristof J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 6 January , 2005 Share Posted 6 January , 2005 Indeed you better stop your discussion, kristof and do some better research. By the way, does anybody already know that the village Heuvellland will open 2 of 3 bunkers on the Lettenberg (near Kemmel) on 17 april 2005. I think it can be worth a visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 7 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2005 Hi, I haven't been able to check the forum the last few days, and was a bit overwelmed by all the replies on the topic I started. Just wanted to add a few things: - professional archaeologists use digging machines, yes. If somebody would invent a machine to strip off the top-layer delicately... he would probably be a rich-man in no time. But an experienced operater of a digging machine can sometimes do amazing things. I remember being on an excavation where we were supervising a digging machine taking off the top-layer of soil, the operater could tel when he hit things as small as the skull of a rabbit! - In an ideal situation, all archaeology should be done by proffesionals. But as the situation is now, volunteers, 'amateurs' have to help out. I do not object to this, as long as they take good care of recording as much as they can, and if at least they understand something about archaeological stratigraphy and respect it. I am member of an amateur group myself, mostly involved in Roman and medieval excavations, and the level of knowledge of some amateurs is exceptionally high, as is their enthusiasm and dedication. But if it is more or less possible, yes, the work should be done by professionals. - I think we can agree that this is a sensitive issue, in many aspects... but let us discuss it with the mutual respect every forum member, and any researcher in general, diserves. We owe that to each other AND to the provider of this forum. regards, Bert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 7 January , 2005 Share Posted 7 January , 2005 Bert, you don't have to apology. It is a sensitive topic indeed. But like you say, we need to face reallity and not dream about a "perfect" world. Some people just think they have seen the light. Well I know one thing for sure: i am still looking for a solution, for answers. I think the key to good research and exclavation in Flanders is mutual respect, no jalousy and co-operation. NO I WILL NOT CALL NAMES. The ask for that proofs there are also politics, goup vs group involved... THAT IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM. If that should be solved, the exclavation should work much better. greets, kristof a NON digger (not refering to the group called like that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 7 January , 2005 Share Posted 7 January , 2005 By the way this is the topic about the bunkers on Kemmel - Lettenberg: http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=26014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 7 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2005 Kristof, I know what you mean... and I couldn't agree more. regards, Bert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 7 January , 2005 Share Posted 7 January , 2005 - I think we can agree that this is a sensitive issue, in many aspects... but let us discuss it with the mutual respect every forum member, and any researcher in general, diserves. We owe that to each other AND to the provider of this forum. regards, Bert Well said Bert!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugout Posted 7 January , 2005 Share Posted 7 January , 2005 I think we can agree that this is a sensitive issue, in many aspects... but let us discuss it with the mutual respect every forum member, and any researcher in general, diserves. We owe that to each other AND to the provider of this forum. Bert I think Bert has a very strong point here. RESPECT in all his forms is what we have to keep in mind. I think that everyone who has seen the work of the IAP during the last years near Pilckem only can show deep respect for their work and the way they did it. For example: If you realise that they did find the remains of tree men during one week of excavating, without any dog-tack, personal items and hit by shells, and they were able to identify them within a week by serious historical research and co-operation of pros and non pros…. Well the only thing I can say about these things is "Well done boys". I can advise everyone who's not sure about the fieldwork of the IAP to visit the first floor of the Blanckaert Chateau near Woumen. Respectable work. Greets, Kristof J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 7 January , 2005 Share Posted 7 January , 2005 For example: If you realise that they did find the remains of tree men during one week of excavating, without any dog-tack, personal items and hit by shells, and they were able to identify them within a week by serious historical research and co-operation of pros and non pros…. Well the only thing I can say about these things is "Well done boys". Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know they were not identified. There were "rumours" that one was, but this was very premature. And wrong. This was discussed in a thread a year ago. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugout Posted 7 January , 2005 Share Posted 7 January , 2005 Hi Aurel, I think you mean the facts of November 2003? Yes, but there it was a Lewis gun team and one isolated. From the isolated remains, they were nearly 100 % sure of who it was, but did not make it public to save the feeling of the family. Unlucky someone leaked to a tabloid the evening before remembrance day and with all the publicity you cant continue such a delicate matter. As you know, from the moment the press is involved, mostly the situation is lost. Greets, Kristof J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 7 January , 2005 Share Posted 7 January , 2005 I think you mean the facts of November 2003? Yes, but there it was a Lewis gun team and one isolated. From the isolated remains, they were nearly 100 % sure of who it was, but did not make it public to save the feeling of the family. Unlucky someone leaked to a tabloid the evening before remembrance day and with all the publicity you cant continue such a delicate matter. As you know, from the moment the press is involved, mostly the situation is lost. Hi Kristof J. I'm afraid I'm still not convinced. Yes, I meant the press commotion a year ago in November 2003. I'm not sure we are talking about the same (mis)identification. But it seems that you are talking about the ID (William Storey) that was announced in some sort of press around 11 November (No coincidence of course !). A lot was said about this Private William Storey, 5/Northumberland Fusiliers, who reportedly had been identified. You write that "they were nearly 100% sure". First of all I would be eager to know who "they" were, since it was not the IAP nor CWGC (who felt even a bit uneasy about this so-called and premature (and wrong) ID). I have expressed my scepticism several times, e.g. in the thread "Excavations near St. Jean" : http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showt...=6484&hl=storey (The bottom line : it cannot be William Storey, because William Storey died 2 years later and 6 miles away.) As far as I know none of the men found by the IAP have been identified. In the past one and a half years none have been reburied with a name ID. But maybe other remains are still being examined, waiting for a reburial ? But even that would surprise me. Anyway, this is not what this thread is about. (Sorry for hijacking it, Bert Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugout Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 hello Aurel, I will look the article up and mail you a scan of it. btw did you change your e-mail adres? I did try to mail you last week, but was rejected. Greets, Kristof J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 Kristof, The articles I have about the (mis)identification of William Storey are : - Doubts cast on identity of fallen soldier of the First world War, Soldier's Remains Prove a Mystery, (Newcastle?) Evening Chroncle, January (exact date illegible), 2004 - Grandson's pilgrimage to burials, Identity search ends in mystery, (Newcastle?) Evening Chronicle, March 27, 2004 I don't have the article of the tabloid you are referring to that must date from beginning Nov 2003, in which William Storey's identity was claimed (prematurely and wrongly). My email address is still the same. (Pandora, which you have used once or twice in the past), and I have no knowledge of any problems. There was however also an Advalvas address, but this one was cancelled a very long time ago (too much porn). Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 Signaller Eric Cowling of D245 came back from the Western Front in 1919 and almost immediately threw himself into investigating the archaeology and prehistory of his home on an entirely amateur and self taught level. He was a pioneer, a leading light in the almost wholly amateur investigation and elucidation of Wharfedale prehistory. Many post war archaeological luminaries had a military background (self-evidently) and we should be building on their ground breaking work. After all, many of them would have trod the duckboards some of us try to excavate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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