depaor01 Posted 21 September , 2017 Share Posted 21 September , 2017 Hi folks, Some time ago I visited the Dublin Diocesan Archives to source items relating to the 1916 Rising for a South Dublin Libraries exhibition. Among the items I scanned was an account of the Battle of Mount Street written from a British Army viewpoint. These items were given to us to host on our digital archive on a not for profit basis for educational and research only. I reproduce them here on that basis for research. My question is - who is likely to have written the account? Was it one of the Dublin Veterans' Corps or a Sherwood Forester? There are some clues: "H was marching beside me... He turned to me with disgust. "Waters" he said "It was a shame to retire..." I agreed. (This seems to imply someone named Waters is the writer, but later he is mentioned in the third person. Mention of "Major Harris", "Battalion Sergeant Major O'Toole" "Browning, the Second in Command of the Battalion" "Poor Gamble had been shot dead" Mention made of the arrival of the Sherwood Foresters Here is the document. Apologies I haven't transcribed it, but all info gratefully received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 21 September , 2017 Share Posted 21 September , 2017 (edited) 8833 CQMS Robert Gamble, 2nd Bn. Royal Irish Rifles killed in Ireland 26 April 1916: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/397107/gamble,-robert/#&gid=null&pid=1 https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=162150722&ref=acom JP Edited 21 September , 2017 by helpjpl To add information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 21 September , 2017 Share Posted 21 September , 2017 Lieutenant Colonel Francis Henry Browning: https://www.tcd.ie/library/1916/frank-browning-a-casualty-of-the-1916-easter-rising/ https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Browning&GSiman=1&GScid=2233946&GRid=156046453& JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 21 September , 2017 Share Posted 21 September , 2017 Major G A Harris, Adjutant of the Dublin University Officer Training Corps. On 24 April he was in the Dublin mountains acting as umpire at military exercises carried out by the Volunteer Training Corps - the 'Gorgeous Wrecks'. Browning, see above, formed two columns. Major Harris led his column to their depot at Beggar's Bush barracks. JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 21 September , 2017 Author Share Posted 21 September , 2017 That is amazing info JP. Thanks for all your efforts. Is the likelihood that we have a first hand account by one of the "Gorgeous Wrecks"? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Pegum Posted 21 September , 2017 Share Posted 21 September , 2017 1 hour ago, helpjpl said: Lieutenant Colonel Francis Henry Browning: https://www.tcd.ie/library/1916/frank-browning-a-casualty-of-the-1916-easter-rising/ I wrote this account of Frank Browning, having researched him for my book, Our Fallen Members. The war casualties of the Kildare Street and Dublin University Clubs. I also wrote an account of the Battle of Mount Street Bridge in the Dublin Historical Record (the journal of the Old Dublin Society) of Autumn/Winter 2016 (Vol 69, No. 2, pp.146-156). The VTC, aka the Gorgeous Wrecks, returned to Dublin from their field day in two columns, one led by Major Harris and the other by Frank Browning. They took different routes on approaching Beggars Bush barracks, their base, and each came under fire from different groups of rebels, the Irish Volunteers. I quoted from first-hand accounts from the British side by Henry Hanna, a Sergeant in the VTC (M/S TCD 10066/192) and from Captain E. Gerrard, Sherwood Foresters (Bureau of Military History WS 348. Incidentally, Frank Browning was not a Lt. Colonel, as stated in one of the links above, because there was no such rank in the VTC, the equivalent being Commandant. He was a Company Commander, equivalent to Captain, and his wife was granted the pension of a Lieutenant's widow. The document in Post 1 will add to the information available from this side of the Rebellion, and I hope someone will transcribe it into typescript! Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 21 September , 2017 Author Share Posted 21 September , 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Michael Pegum said: The document in Post 1 will add to the information available from this side of the Rebellion, and I hope someone will transcribe it into typescript! Michael I'll certainly do that before loading it onto our archive. Thanks Michael Dave Edited 21 September , 2017 by depaor01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 21 September , 2017 Share Posted 21 September , 2017 'Poor Clery had been shot and was carried in a dying state….' Reginald Francis Clery: https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=116284849 JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 25 September , 2017 Author Share Posted 25 September , 2017 With the aid of the archivist in the Diocesan Archives I have now secured a transcription. As soon as I can figure out what the underlined word is here, I'll post a link to the finished piece. I think it's "Stentman", but I can't find any military application of such a word. Anyone any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 25 September , 2017 Share Posted 25 September , 2017 Stentorian, as in loud and strong! Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 25 September , 2017 Author Share Posted 25 September , 2017 6 minutes ago, JMB1943 said: Stentorian, as in loud and strong! Regards, JMB Genius! Thanks JMB. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullerTurner Posted 25 September , 2017 Share Posted 25 September , 2017 Stentorian definitely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 28 September , 2017 Author Share Posted 28 September , 2017 Here is the first-hand account from a Dublin1916 combatant whose version of events is rarely heard. Includes a full transcription: http://source.southdublinlibraries.ie/handle/10599/11976 Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Pegum Posted 28 September , 2017 Share Posted 28 September , 2017 7 hours ago, depaor01 said: Here is the first-hand account from a Dublin1916 combatant whose version of events is rarely heard. Includes a full transcription: Dave Well done, thank you very much! A very interesting account, which tallies well with that by Henry Hanna. There is more detail about how they got over the wall of the barracks than I`ve seen before, and of life within the barracks. There are some errors in the Findagrave biography of Frank Browning, which I will try to correct. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 28 September , 2017 Author Share Posted 28 September , 2017 Thanks Michael. I was toying with the idea of walking round the walls and looking for likely protruding metal spikes to identify the location of the wall climb! Long gone probably. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 30 September , 2017 Share Posted 30 September , 2017 On 28 September 2017 at 13:17, depaor01 said: Here is the first-hand account from a Dublin1916 combatant whose version of events is rarely heard. Includes a full transcription: http://source.southdublinlibraries.ie/handle/10599/11976 Dave Thank you for this. I'm still trying to identify 'Waters'. Any thoughts? Could he be in the University of Dublin War List 1922: Trinity College by M W J Fry? JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Pegum Posted 30 September , 2017 Share Posted 30 September , 2017 5 hours ago, helpjpl said: Thank you for this. I'm still trying to identify 'Waters'. Any thoughts? Could he be in the University of Dublin War List 1922: Trinity College by M W J Fry? JP No, he isn't (nor is he in the UCD list). There are two men of the name Waters in the TCD list, both of whom were in the Army at the time. Someone who might be able to help is Neil Richardson, author of 'According to their Lights'. He had a lot of information about members of the VTC, but I don't have a copy to check the name Waters. If anyone knows how to get in touch with him, he could check his files, and I'm sure he will be very interested in this document. I have written to him to know where the information about members of the VTC had been found, but had no reply. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 30 September , 2017 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2017 If we're all agreed the writer is Waters (which I think we are - including the donor archive) it would be great to be able to identify the man. It's a pity he didn't fully identify himself, but understandable. Thanks Michael for pursuing that lead, and JP for your continued interest in this. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyle3 Posted 23 November , 2017 Share Posted 23 November , 2017 (edited) Charles T Watters, Cpl, VTC. Listed as a Defender of Beggars Bush Barracks. but think it is Charles T(eeling) Waters http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mansion_House/Fitzwilliam_Square__North/87619/ He gets a mention in Bulmer Hobson's witness statement He mentions Sgt Major O'Toole who is also listed as a Defender of Beggars Bush Barracks. Edited 24 November , 2017 by doyle3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 24 November , 2017 Share Posted 24 November , 2017 16 hours ago, doyle3 said: Charles T Watters, Cpl, VTC. Listed as a Defender of Beggars Bush Barracks. but think it is Charles T(eeling) Waters http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mansion_House/Fitzwilliam_Square__North/87619/ He gets a mention in Bulmer Hobson's witness statement He mentions Sgt Major O'Toole who is also listed as a Defender of Beggars Bush Barracks. Charles Teeling Waters (BA-Trinity College, Dublin), Barrister and Admiralty Registrar, lived Fitzwilliam Square, died in Dublin on 30 September 1919 aged 62. JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Pegum Posted 28 November , 2017 Share Posted 28 November , 2017 On 23/11/2017 at 23:22, doyle3 said: Charles T Watters, Cpl, VTC. Listed as a Defender of Beggars Bush Barracks. but think it is Charles T(eeling) Waters http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mansion_House/Fitzwilliam_Square__North/87619/ He gets a mention in Bulmer Hobson's witness statement Which witness statement is that? The only mention I can find in the Bureau of Military History is in WS 0685, by Mrs. Bulmer Hobson (née Claire Gregan), and she says that Charles Teeling Waters was a member of the Committee of the Irish Volunteer Aid Organisation. On a quick search, I have not been able to find what this was, although the name strongly suggests it was nationalist, and associated with Redmond’s Irish Volunteers. She said that Bulmer Hobson called to that office on business, and asked her to move to the Republican Volunteer office at 2, Dawson Street when it closed; she mentions several definitely nationalist visitors there. If the Irish Volunteer Aid Organisation was nationalist, it makes Charles Waters’ membership of the Volunteer Training Corps intriguing! Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyle3 Posted 1 December , 2017 Share Posted 1 December , 2017 (edited) sorry, should have said Mrs Bulmer Hobson. Bulmer Hobson gives a background to the organisation she refers to http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS0052.pdf Both mention Fottrell https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1612871/fottrell,-brendan-joseph/ and Henry Harrison, a former Parnellite MP who then served with the 16th Division (Royal Irish Regt as per Fottrell) and later Recruiting Officer in Ireland Ambrose Aliaga-Kelly is mentioned by both and gets a mention in the witness statement of Joseph Plunkett's sister http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS0358.pdf#page=7 Professor David Houston, possibly an IAVTC member, was landlord and friend of Thomas McDonagh and took on some of McDonaghs literary affairs after the Rising. Edited 1 December , 2017 by doyle3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyle3 Posted 2 December , 2017 Share Posted 2 December , 2017 DMP report for the 24th April 1916 re the shooting of the IAVTC. Also list of the Defenders of Beggar's Bush re Watters/Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Pegum Posted 3 December , 2017 Share Posted 3 December , 2017 I see the Rev. J. L. Robinson was "Sergt.-Instructor Musketry". Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition! Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyle3 Posted 3 December , 2017 Share Posted 3 December , 2017 a useful skill as an RN chaplain from Feb 1918 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/182037616 His brother and cousins are slightly better known https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Robinson_(Irish_politician) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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