Uniforms,arms, insignia, medals

[tonycad]

I picked up these bullets near Langemark.

I think the first one is a 303, the second a machine gun 303, but what is the third one?

Help please

Thank you

Tony

[MikB]

No. 1 has an unusually wide cannelure if it's a 303, and the ogive doesn't look quite as pointy as a standard Mk.VII 174-grain bullet - but it still could be one, depending on what happened to it to bring it to a halt.

No. 2 looks bigger than .303 to me. Can you measure the diameters accurately with a mike or vernier? It's of an advanced design with a boattail that would normally suggest much more modern origin - dunno if they were in use in WW1. It could perhaps be an 8mm German Mauser "Spitzgeschoss". They were .323" diameter compared to the 303's .311", and weighed 198 grains (IIRC).

No.3 is another one that seems out of its time, the other way. It looks very much like a 303 Mk.VI. This was a heavier, roundnosed bullet than the pointed Mk.VII. But I thought it dropped out of use before WW1 - though I suppose it's always possible that old stocks were issued to offset ammo shortages.

Hope this helps. Do they all have rifling marks on them? If so, which way do they go? Left-hand twist is as British as fish'n'chips.

Regards,

MikB

[tonycad]

Dear MikB,

I am sorry that I posted such a poor photograph.

Whilst I get the gist of your posting, I am a little lost as I am not familiar with the nomenclature.

Sorry, I do not have the capability to measure the bullets, but I will try and borrow a vernier.

No 1 bullet rifling has a right hand twist, that is the rifling from bottom to top twists to the right.

No 2 the rifling bears to the left. Does this mean it is not British.

No 3 I cannot make out the rifling. With regard to this bullet, I found some details on the Web that pointed to it being German for a rifle dicontinued in 1910 - 11, but was in use in 1914. Does this make sense to you.

Finally, whilst it can be seen from the base, the core of bullets 1 and 3 are lead filled, bullet 2 has a closed base.

As to the provenance of the material, I picked them from a large pile of bullets in a farm yard in the locality, surrounded by a lot of other materiel recovered from the fields.

I am very grateful for your comments. Can you add any more from the above.

Thank you

Tony

[tonycad]

MikB,

Sorry, would you amend my previous postin as follw.

No 1 rifling twists to the right. add 'Does this mean it is not British'

No 2 rifling twists to the left. delete 'Does this mean it is not British'

Sorry

Tony

[CROONAERT]

No.1 looks like a .303,

No.2 is definately a French 8mm Lebel

No.3 could be the older .303, but a more common find that looks like this would be a Belgian 7.65mm "Mauser" G89 (or FN Fusil Modele 1889 depending on what you want to call it - same rifle) round. I've found several in this area (and,strangely also near Cap blanc nez near calais).

Dave.

[NIGEL]

It is a sub-sonic bullet, definetly not a machine gun, and would be surprised if it was a military rifle bullet.

All bullets with a round nose are sub-sonic, a design usually associated with a pistol, it dosent seem to have much of a rear taper also associated with pistol.

.303 would be around 9-10mm in size so that would be the pistol size round, but the bullet is rather long for a standard pistol bullet.

[CROONAERT]

It is a sub-sonic bullet, definetly not a machine gun, and would be surprised if it was a military rifle bullet.

All bullets with a round nose are sub-sonic, a design usually associated with a pistol, it dosent seem to have much of a rear taper also associated with pistol.

You wouldn't fit this one in a pistol, Nigel!!!!

This Fus.mle.1889 round was found just up the road from Langemark at St-Janshoek.

Dave.

[NIGEL]

Beyond me then Dave, pointed nose for supersonic with tapered back for less drag, round nose for subsonic, if the charge was heavy it wouldnt stop supersonic for long.

[MikB]

Beyond me then Dave, pointed nose for supersonic with tapered back for less drag, round nose for subsonic, if the charge was heavy it wouldnt stop supersonic for long.

Dunno if we want to get into this on this board, but there are loads and loads of rifle rounds that launch roundnosed bullets at velocities in excess of twice the speed of sound.

It's true that the round nose reduces the aerodynamic component of the ballistic coefficient, but many of them offset this with a high sectional density, ie. the bullet's long, providing a lot of weight of lead behind every square mm of cross section.

If no. 2's a Lebel round (which now I look at it again, it does resemble), that would explain its greater size, because they were solid turned bronze with no lead core. Surprised about the LH twist though - I thought only British rifles used that.

Regards,

MikB

[NIGEL]

We had similar threads to this recently Mike, and what i found out off the net, and bullet manufacturers, is that now all supersonic ammo is pointed and a certain shape, this for long range high speed flat trajectory, and when it hits, it will also alllow to tumble if the bullet is short in length.

Cylindricle type bullets, do not tend to tumble so much, but with a round nose would be a short range, arking in flight type bullet perhaps a lot heavier, maybe this bullet was preferred to kill large game originally in those days, perhaps that was the thinking then. Saying that, at the range they were shooting at each other in the trenches, it wouldnt have made much difference.

[NIGEL]

On the twist in british guns, wasnt that designed by a man called Whitworth who also designed his own thread for nuts and bolts which are still used today. I think Whitworth also designed a hexagonal type bullet aswell, which was very accurate, also used by the British before 1900.

[tonycad]

Dear Mikb, Dave, Nigel,

I knew the Pals would come up trumps.

I have summarised the main points beow:

Bullet No 1. Unusual shape, but could be 303. Looks like a 303. The rifling to the right is puzzling.

No 2. 8mm German Mauser. Definately a French 8mm Lebel.

No 3. Could be an older 303. A Belgium 7.65 Mauser (or Fusil Modele 1889) Made of solid turned bronze.

In conclusion:

1 303

2 French 8mm Lebel

3 Belgian FN Modele 1889

Thank yoTony

[T8HANTS]

Hi

Mr Whitworth's muzzel loading Rifled musket was in .451" and indeed was hexoconical in shape, longer than the standard "Minnie" ball of the 1860's, he also produced light field pieces with hexagonal shot.

While not able to comment on round 3, the Long Lee Enfield did go to France and Flanders with some Pals and Territorial units. These were sighted for the Mk VI round nose bullet (214 grns I think), if you use the lighter MkVII (174grn) bullet in the LLE then sighting is just guess work. Also I believe the Canadian Expeditionary Force also used Mk VI round nose. Don't forget the .303" was originaly a black powder non jacketed round, for Metford rifling, it should have been long gone by 1914.

[MikB]

Sorry, Tony, it's the Lebel bullet, No. 2, that's solid turned bronze. I have also to admit that the Lebel definitely used lefthand twist, which I didn't know. I had thought that was peculiarly British.

http://www.nasog.net/datasheets/firearms/b...07_15_Rifle.htm

I now suspect No. 1 can't be 303, with both r/h rifling and the cannelure wider than any I've seen - there were three stab crimps in the case neck that went into the cannelure to retain the bullet in WW1 303 Mk. VII. Later the cannelure was moved forward and the casemouth roll crimped into it.

The cannelure on No.3 looks right for 303, the round nose looks right for Mk. VI, but I wonder if it's long enough to weigh the 214 grains...

Regards,

MikB

[riflegreen]

No.1 could be .303 made by Dominion Arsenal Canada , have seen .303 with the deep cannelure before , No.2 is 8mm Lebel , No.3 is Mkv .303 , if it comes near 7.7mm it is .303 .

Chris