PhilB Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 I like trench art, but get put off by suspicions that it might be of recent manufacture. For example, bugles. They often come with badges soldered to the front. Did buglers solder badges on? Would they have been allowed to? Has anybody any pointers to how to spot a repro bit of trench art? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 I suspect that the mobile phone covers are most probably fakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 1st fact: most "trench art" is made in the post war period (how could they know it would be 1914-1918) 2nd fact: A lot of trench art is younger than you and me, as their is more demand than offer. 3d fact: if all the trench art would be original, what did they do then in the trenches??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 Kristof, I happen to have original Trench Art. A Match Box Cover and a couple of Ash Trays.As my Uncle was killed in 1918, no-one from the Family ever visited France and my Father was Policeman I suggest they are genuine!. The Ash trays bear Chinese Characters(writing) and there was certainly a thriving industry behind the lines involving the Chinese. Probably the same with the Matchbox Cover which has a General Service Button and Pioneer Collar Badge embedded on the Front and Battle Honours to Ypres inscribed on the reverse.I would suggest they were ordered and constructed whilst my Uncle was on Local Leave from the Trenches. I remember these articles being in the House for over 50 years and I'm sure if I asked my Sisters I could go back a lot further.So definitely not modern. It's surprising what things were being made whilst the Men were on "Active Service".One Christmas my Uncle had time to have pre-printed Christmas Cards made i.e. Christmas Greetings with his name and Battalion printed so all he had to do was address the envelope and send them off! All I can say in answer to the original question, apart from the provenance as described above.They look, feel and indeed smell old,accumulation of "Brasso" in the "nooks and crannies" which cannot be shifted is an obvious one in the "Art" I possess. Don't be so cynical George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 I don't think you can call me cynical, i am just realistic. There is good trench art, i also own pieces of real art. I just wanted to point out there is a lot of post war production (not fake) and fake on the market. I don't say post war production is bad, it was sometimes made by veterans for veterans ascociations (in Belgium it was like that). But you must be carefull! I saw a few weeks ago an encarved shell, a bit to nice... A closer look revealed it had been made with an encarving machine, like Dremel. An d that can't be 1920's too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 Phil, There have been a few similar discussions before I think - there may be some more useful info if you have a search for 'trench art'. As Kristof says most was made post war by Western Front locals, some was made in the rear areas by engineers etc and a small amount was actually made in the trenches. Most for sale is genuine and obviously so especially the 'ordinary' pieces. You need to be careful with higher value items especially brass 'trench-caps' and tanks, candle stick holders etc. The shells and letter openers are plentiful and cheap especially at French fairs. Having said that there are plenty of repro letter openers being made and sold - you will find them on sale at the Musee Abris for instance (amongst other repro things). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 22 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2004 Thanks, gents. What about the badged bugles? Do you reckon any of them are kosher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 maybe but... who will tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 Hmmm, not sure if I would class them as trench art - they are really just regular commercially produced bugles with a badge affixed. In addition it would be difficult to ascertain when this was done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 22 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2004 Do you think a bugler in a battalion would have been allowed to solder a badge to his bugle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 Without wanting to be drawn into this discussion - I would recommend reading the book 'Trench Art: A brief history and guide, 1914-1939' by Nicholas Saunders (ISBN 0-85052-820-8). Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 Here is a letter opener made by a member of the Chinese Labour Corps. The design on the face shown is a lady in traditional Chinese dress. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 22 December , 2004 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2004 Thanks, Ian. One wonders how a man sitting in a trench would cut a piece of brass into the shape of a blade as well as that. Give me a piece of brass and a pair of snips and it wouldn`t look at all like that! It wouldn`t even be flat when I`d finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 Well the term 'Trench Art' is very misleading. From what I have read, a lot of it was done by men in workshops who had access to such tools to be able to make such intricate shapes and designs. Men from units such as the REs, RFC/RAF and Chinese Labour Corps were very active in producing items as diverse as letter openers, coal scuttles, clocks and matchbox holders. I don't want to pre-empt Nick's excellent book but it is well worth the money. All the best - Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbarchetta Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 Phil et al. Have to go with George - experience and the 'feel' of the object, wear, dirt, brasso etc and also the work involved. Decent trench art takes hours and hours to make - no-one these days is going to do that. However cutting a shell down, bashing out a peak and sticking a badge on the front takes minutes, hence the cap as an oft faked item. Also concur with Ian, buy a book (Nick's 'Materialities & Memories' is better though)! On bugles, 'fraid I don't know - I've got one, which is enough for me, seems old, but may only be forties or fifties for all I know, but it doesn't really count as trench art !! IMHO Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 One wonders how a man sitting in a trench would cut a piece of brass into the shape of a blade as well as that. Give me a piece of brass and a pair of snips and it wouldn`t look at all like that! It wouldn`t even be flat when I`d finished. Because as I posted above most of it was not made by men in trenches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 For definitions of trench art, examples and general info see the link below - this is probably the best source of trench art info on the web: http://www.trenchart.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbarchetta Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 One wonders how a man sitting in a trench would cut a piece of brass into the shape of a blade as well as that. Give me a piece of brass and a pair of snips and it wouldn`t look at all like that! It wouldn`t even be flat when I`d finished. You might make a better job of it if you spend three hours a day on it for a month, rather than a half hour 'quick and dirty' attempt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 There are a few copies of Nicholas Saunders book on ebay.co.uk at the moment. They are all the later smaller format paperback edition. This is probably preferable though to the first hardback edition as there are many colour pictures as opposed to black and white. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...4513489836&rd=1 Having said that the people behind the website in my post above are also to publish a book - if it is as good as their site it will be an essential buy as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shenkursk Posted 23 December , 2004 Share Posted 23 December , 2004 Trenchart.org is operated by a good customer and friend Jane Kimball. Her new book has just been published. Got an email from her today stating that she expects a general release in January. I have had the pleasure of previewing a couple of chapters, and thought them to be a very informative and scholarly work. She has been working on this (at her own expense) for ages, and it is great to see the project finally completed. As to fake trench art, the biggest problem that I have encountered is in aluminum. It is softer, easier to work, and therefore more appealing to the bad guys. One guy in particular aged his with grease and grime from the car engine. It was convincing at first, but after you've seen a few they start to jump out at you. He even said once "Aluminum is my medium..." but has since seen the light and reformed his wicked ways. The other thing to keep a good eye for are rotary marks such as would be left by the small craft tools (Dremel). These have been a favorite forgery tool for a while, but are also easier to spot after you have seen a few. Best regards, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 23 December , 2004 Share Posted 23 December , 2004 Jim, How does Saunders 'Materialities & Memories' fit in with his first book on trench art? I had not heard of M&M until you mentioned it and I had a look on Amazon. Is it a totally different work or a revision? Jane Kimball's book looks very interesting if a little pricey (£68 on Amazon UK)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbarchetta Posted 24 December , 2004 Share Posted 24 December , 2004 Giles et al. Nick's second book, Materialities & Memories, benefits beyond all recognition from an influx of personal accounts that he got after the first book came out. The first book is a good summary of trench art, with many contemporary accounts etc, but M&M delves more into personal memories and is in a lot more depth, more contemporary pictures etc etc. If you haven't bought his first book, don't - buy M&M instead. Jane's book is the other obvious alternative. I have also only seen the odd chapter, so cannot judge it yet, but it is likely to be as good as M&M, but with more photo's - her collection is, well, extensive...! Think she is having problems with UK Amazon, they've just cancelled my order saying the book is cancelled (with them) so I will have to investigate amazon.com...grrr... Don't buy the £68 'as new' copies, I think these are rogues taking advantage of the problems she is having with Amazon UK... Just my opinion... Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shenkursk Posted 24 December , 2004 Share Posted 24 December , 2004 In our last email conversation, she indicated that she was displeased with Amazon in general. I hope to hear back from her publisher in time to include her book in our January catalog, so that will be one source (among many) where it will be available. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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