H.G.&R. Ld. - Hepburn, Gale & Ross Limited.

[DapperDave]

Hi everyone, 

I'm trying to find out the truth behind the maker ink stamp for Hepburn Gale and Ross Limited. After World War One the company became Barrow Hepburn and Gale. I have my eye on some '08 items with the ink stamp: 'H.G.&R. Ld'

My questions are...

 

1) Which marking is correct? 'HGR' (the most common one I've seen) or 'H.G.&R. Ld'. I've definitely seen both, but the 'HGR' seems to be far more common. 

 

2) Did Hepburn Gale and Ross manufacture cotton webbing items during World War One? Or did they just manufacture leather items. 

 

Thank you!  

 

- Dave

[4thGordons]

From Karkee web : the answer to all things P1908

 

They show HERE some 1918 dated P08 braces stamped HGR ltd and date
and HERE an HGR stamped haversack dated 1916

so it would seem yes they produced 08 web and regarding the stamp both versions were in use - one might guess that HGR predates HGR Ltd but on the basis of so few observations that would be a stretch at this point.

 

Surviving HGR markings on leather items are more common in my experience so it might be possible to survey those and see if a date pattern emerges?

 

Chris

[Dave66]

Hi Dave,

I too was wondering about the Hepburn Gale & Ross p08 equipment, as I've seen so very few pieces I was wondering about their authenticity. I have a P08 bayonet frog with tab removed, stamped H.G.& R LD 1918.

Hope the attached photo helps.

Dave.

 

[gordon92]

Here is another data point showing H.G.R. LD. 1916 markings on an 08 web belt.

 

[Pete_C]

Hi Dave

HGR Ltd manufactured all components of the Pattern 1908 web equipment apart from the cartridge carriers - only Mills and MW&S had the special looms needed to produce cartridge carriers. HGR web components are not especially rare which suggests that they did produce large quantities but not on the scale of the two principal manufacturers. From my experience, the colour of HGR web tends to be of a lighter shade than other makers, and clearly they did use different variations of their name when marking up items. 

 

All the best

 

Pete

 

 

[DapperDave]

On 9/4/2017 at 13:08, 4thGordons said:

From Karkee web : the answer to all things P1908

 

They show HERE some 1918 dated P08 braces stamped HGR ltd and date
and HERE an HGR stamped haversack dated 1916

so it would seem yes they produced 08 web and regarding the stamp both versions were in use - one might guess that HGR predates HGR Ltd but on the basis of so few observations that would be a stretch at this point.

 

Surviving HGR markings on leather items are more common in my experience so it might be possible to survey those and see if a date pattern emerges?

 

Chris

Hi Chris,

This is good to know. I often look at Karkee but I tend to scan and overlook key details. Thank you very much for posting this. Same here, 'HGR' marks on leather goods is what I mostly encounter as well

 

- Dave

On 9/4/2017 at 13:40, Dave66 said:

Hi Dave,

I too was wondering about the Hepburn Gale & Ross p08 equipment, as I've seen so very few pieces I was wondering about their authenticity. I have a P08 bayonet frog with tab removed, stamped H.G.& R LD 1918.

Hope the attached photo helps.

Dave.

Hi Dave,

What an awesome piece. And thank you very much for your input, I have my eye on a few '08 'H.G.&.R. Ld' marked items and wanted to be sure that it wasn't a fantasy item. This stuff is getting harder and harder to find.  

 

- Dave

[DapperDave]

On 9/4/2017 at 13:52, gordon92 said:

Here is another data point showing H.G.R. LD. 1916 markings on an 08 web belt.

 

This is awesome and I now have more confidence in Hepburn Gale and Ross markings on webbing. I'd seen a few pieces here and there but this is very cool. Have you encountered many '08 belts with the pre-war flat rivets and eyeleted tabs? Thank you for sharing and your help!

 

- Dave

[DapperDave]

On 9/4/2017 at 18:46, Pete_C said:

Hi Dave

HGR Ltd manufactured all components of the Pattern 1908 web equipment apart from the cartridge carriers - only Mills and MW&S had the special looms needed to produce cartridge carriers. HGR web components are not especially rare which suggests that they did produce large quantities but not on the scale of the two principal manufacturers. From my experience, the colour of HGR web tends to be of a lighter shade than other makers, and clearly they did use different variations of their name when marking up items. 

 

All the best

 

Pete

 

 

That's very interesting and I never knew that about the difference between their shade of webbing and the shades of M.W.&S and M.E.Co. But that makes sense. Thanks Pete! I appreciate it. 

[DapperDave]

Hey everyone, for some reason I didn't see that y'all had responded to my topic and only found it today so I apologize for the delay. Thank you for all of your help.

 

Speaking of markings, did anyone see that PH gas helmet and carrying bag circulating the collecting community a few months back? The bag was Mills marked but with a known fake Mills stamp and the whole set went for $2,500.00. What a shame!

 

- Dave

Edited 11 September , 2017 by DapperDave

[wainfleet]

On 06/09/2017 at 01:38, DapperDave said:

Hey everyone, for some reason I didn't see that y'all had responded to my topic and only found it today so I apologize for the delay. Thank you for all of your help.

 

Speaking of markings, did anyone see that PH gas helmet and carrying bag circulating the collecting community a few months back? The bag was Mills marked but with a known fake Mills stamp and the the whole set went for $2,500.00. What a shame!

 

- Dave

 

If you mean the one with the well-known ME Co 1916 stamp, yes the bag was compete nonsense but I thought the helmet was pretty good. People have been known to pay that much for the helmet alone as they are virtually unobtainable, so obviously a disappointment if whoever got it believed the bag was ok but not a total disaster.

 

Can't be any more specific in view of GWF rules on comments about items for sale.

[DapperDave]

2 hours ago, wainfleet said:

 

If you mean the one with the well-known ME Co 1916 stamp, yes the bag was compete nonsense but I thought the helmet was pretty good. People have been known to pay that much for the helmet alone as they are virtually unobtainable, so obviously a disappointment if whoever got it believed the bag was ok but not a total disaster.

 

Can't be any more specific in view of GWF rules on comments about items for sale.

Yes, I'm certain we're talking about the same one. I had been interested in it, but I kept my eye on it for a while. Something about the bag just didn't sit right with me. That sort of thing makes me suddenly start questioning everything in my own collection lol.  

 

- Dave

[Dave66]

The prices some of these items achieve somewhat astound me at times...you can never quite make it out, some collectors do seem to have very deep pockets and pay the earth....I'll stick to the flea markets I think, so much more fun!!

With regards to the P08 equipment, I've seen more questionable markings than I care to remember so tend to steer clear unless it comes my way fairly cheaply or an from an honest source, and I tend to avoid certain online market places. As a bayonet collector I display each piece in a period frog, and find most of the time the p14 leather equipment is less likely to have been messed with.

 

All the best,

 

Dave.

 

[DapperDave]

23 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

The prices some of these items achieve somewhat astound me at times...you can never quite make it out, some collectors do seem to have very deep pockets and pay the earth....I'll stick to the flea markets I think, so much more fun!!

With regards to the P08 equipment, I've seen more questionable markings than I care to remember so tend to steer clear unless it comes my way fairly cheaply or an from an honest source, and I tend to avoid certain online market places. As a bayonet collector I display each piece in a period frog, and find most of the time the p14 leather equipment is less likely to have been messed with.

 

All the best,

 

Dave.

 

Same here. It's incredible what some items command for a price. I like to think I've grown as a collector over the years and learned to see red flags. 

 

- Dave

[Dave66]

35 minutes ago, DapperDave said:

Same here. It's incredible what some items command for a price. I like to think I've grown as a collector over the years and learned to see red flags. 

 

- Dave

 

As collectors we all make mistakes even if we see the red flags, if it doesn't cost the earth it's a really good learning curve and reminder that we'll never know everything.

Threads like this can prove invaluable, and the knowledge of others on the forum of their chosen subjects can sometimes prevent us from making the little errors...knowledge is power.

 

Dave.

[DapperDave]

20 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

 

As collectors we all make mistakes even if we see the red flags, if it doesn't cost the earth it's a really good learning curve and reminder that we'll never know everything.

Threads like this can prove invaluable, and the knowledge of others on the forum of their chosen subjects can sometimes prevent us from making the little errors...knowledge is power.

 

Dave.

Well said, Dave! 

[daveyw]