Troop Sgt Major AB LLoyd 17 Lancers

[Phill Jones]

While searching the local papers i came across reference to a Troop Sgt Major Arthur Bertram Lloyd of the 17th Lancers , the article refers to the fact that he rescued an injured officer in no mans land during the Battle of the Aisne in 1914 , it seems he was recommended for a VC?? i can find no reference to this award being made can any kind sole tell me if any award was forthcoming and what became of this troop sgt Major ??

 

i have information that he had seen service in the Boar war and afterwards had joined the South African Constabulary , when WW1 was declared he returned to the UK and joined the 2nd King Edwards horse a colonial force ? and went to the front and then joined the 17th Lancers . if anyone can add anything i would be most grateful 

 

Phill Jones 

[Mark1959]

Where is local? This may help identify his records or least exclude ones that are unlikely to be his

 

[Phill Jones]

The Soldier in question was born in Glasbury , very close to the Radnorshire /Herefordshire Border , he is listed as living in Llanwrtyd Wells , Breconshire , the paper was the Brecon and Radnor Express . thank you 

[Mark1959]

This appears to be him. Born Glasbury-on-Wye 31/12/1881

 

[Mark1959]

Birth registered Hay-on-Wye 1Q 1882.

FMP has a militia record 

There is an attestation record for an Arthur Bertram Lloyd 29th June 1900. Age given as 18y 6m. Birth place as Llandrindod but living in Leominster. Attestation into Shrops Light Infantry militia. No real detail after that.

1891 seems to be at school in Oystermouth (Mumbles)

Will take quite a lot of research to track his movements thereafter.

Ancestry has some papers for an ABL M/377712 Army Service Corps (Motor Transport). Motor Mechanic age 39. Enlisting Feb 1918. The attestation refers to previous service in the 6th South African Infantry (Sgt 2216) for 2 years in German East and Central Africa (no dates mentioned). This man is a motor mechanic in Lantwrtyd Wells.Only serves in UK before being discharged medically unfit in July

One of the docs says he was discharged from S Africa Medical Corps with above number due to wound, malaria and blackwater fever. Also says he lost all his teeth due to a blow received in E Africa. 

This man has a Silver War Badge confirming service as 9/2/18 to 23/7/18

ABL born in Glasbury appear in an FMP record as a Merchant Seaman as a Saloon Steward on board the "Garth Castle" 8/11/19 to 26/2/20. The  pic is taken at that time.

 

I cannot find in my quick search around any ref to an Arthur Bertram Lloyd as a Lancer or in KEH, no index card etc. Although not conclusive I am suspicious regarding the history you have given. The man above with the service papers seems slightly too old. However exactly right name from right area. Went to S Africa. The man with papers looks to returned to UK on 30/6/15 on the SS Saxon giving his occupation as army age 37. Whatever we think he needs to be excluded. The VC was certainly not awarded; only one Lloyd got a VC in WW1 and not Arthur.

The NOK on the papers is given as Mary Penry LLoyd although ancestry has it as Penny. One family tree has ABL parents being a "Penry Lloyd" and a Mary Elizabeth Conway. It indicates he married and had several children. This man dies 15/10/1933 in Bradford, Pennsylvannia, USA of bronco-peneumonia. 

Run out of time today but if I was a betting man.....

[Phill Jones]

Mark , very intriguing indeed , thank you very much for your input , i will do some more digging locally and see if anything else turns up in the local paper if i uncover more i will post it thanks again 

Phill

[Steven Broomfield]

I can't see any reference to a Sergeant Major Lloyd in the History of the 17th Lancers, and as they were in India at the outbreak of the war they didn't arrive in time for the fighting on the Aisne. It is possible her was a Reservist at the outbreak of war and therefore served with the Household Cavalry (many Reservists of Line Regiments currently in India did).

[IPT]

Here's the 1914 article with a photograph (looks like the same chap to me) - http://papuraunewydd.llyfrgell.cymru/view/3857415/3857419/78

 

LLAiSIWRTYD WELLS HERO. To be Recommended for the Y.C. .I We have received the following letter, which is best left to tell its own story of heroism, a story which we hope will stimulate recruiting in the county of Breconshire King George's Hospital, Dublin. 10th Nov., 1914. To the Editor of the "Brecon County Times." Dear Sir,- I beg to bring to your notice an act of gallantry performed by Troop-sergeant-major A. B. Lloyd, of Llanwrtyd Wells, Breconshire, who belongs to the 17th Lancers, known as the "Death or Glory Boys." Their badge is the Skull and Crossbones. It was at Aisne, in the trenches. Lieutenant Feary, of the 9th Lancers, was about 300 yards away from our trench. We, having had the order to retire to the trench we were in, when we arrived jumped down into the trench. We looked back and saw Lieutenant Feary fall. The shells and bullets were simply raining over us. Sergeant- major Lloyd jumped up and ran for his dear life and succeeded in reaching Lieutenant Feary, brought him back in his arms, and the poor fellow dropped just as he reached the trench, with about nine bullets in him. Lieutenant Feary and Sergeant-major Lloyd were then taken away to the main body and then to hospital. After that I was wounded in the leg, and when I arrived at the hospital who should I see but the dear old sergeant- major, full of life and anxious to get back to the fighting line. Colonel Warlow, of the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons, saw the brave deed done, and the Sergeant-major will be recommended for the Y.C., and I hope he will get it. They wanted to send him home, but he would not have it. I know Sergeant-major Lloyd belongs to Brecon- shire, but I do not know his proper address, only Llanwrtyd Wells. I am getting on fine and will be going back in a week, and I shall tell Sergeant-major Lloyd, if I see him, that I have written to you, I have the honour to be, sir, your obedient servant, PATRICK O'CONNELL. Our readers will gather for themselves that our correspondent is himself a brave and manly fellow, and will wish him good luck. He belongs to the Dublin Fusiliers. An Adventurous Career. The pride of Breconshire in Sgt.-Major Lloyd's splendid deed will in no wise be lessened by the fact that he comes from one of our best known and most respected county families. Arthur Bertram Lloyd is the youngest son of the late Captain Penry Lloyd, and of Mrs Penry Lloyd, of Ffynonau and the Bungalow, Victoria Wells, and Llanwrtyd Wells, was born at Glasbury. He served through the Boer War, and afterwards joined the South African Constabulary. He returned to England at the outbreak of the present war, and joined the 2nd King Edward's Horse (a Colonial force) as troop-sergeant-major, and proceeded to the front. Since being at the Front he has been transferred to the 17th Lancers, in the same rank.

[Mark1959]

The "Ffynonau" address is the one on the records referred to in my previous post. No mention is made in his ASC attestation in Feb 1918 of any service in the Lancers and KEH; only of the previous S Africa service. A strange case indeed. But I am afraid at the moment I think the above is pure fancy. Is there an actual Lt Feary? Or a Col Warlow?

Edited 25 August , 2017 by Mark1959

[IPT]

Found this commission - https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29121/supplement/3438/data.pdf

 

Welsh Horse; Arthur Bertram Lloyd (late Serjeant, 8th Reserve Regiment of Cavalry) to be Second Lieutenant. Dated 1st April, 1915.

[Steven Broomfield]

The History of the 9th Lancers has a roll of all officers who served from the formation of the regiment (in 1715): oddly enough, no Lieutenant Feary.

36 minutes ago, IPT said:

 

 

LLAiSIWRTYD WELLS HERO. To be Recommended for the Y.C. .

 Young Conservatives?

[Mark1959]

The plot certainly thickens on this one. Need to find the ABL who got his commission. But I think we know the newspaper article is full of holes. There is certainly more than one ABL floating about but the newspaper article certainly seems to be about the one who has surviving papers. So unless he deliberately lied about previous service the story is false

 

[Mark1959]

The 6th Dragoons did not reach Marseilles from India until 14/12/14 according to LLT So Col Warlow could not have been there.  But it seems odd that someone potentially still in South Africa was the subject of such a story. May be tricky to sort this one out

[IPT]

There are four medal cards for Patrick O'Connell's in the RDF. None seem possible.   It's lucky that O'Connell was resourceful enough to identify Lloyd's local newspaper and drop them a quick line, especially with everything that was going on. 

 

Was there a Col. Warlow?

[Steven Broomfield]

I hate to say this, but the whole thing sounds like fantasy! (Lloyd is also not included in the list of other ranks of the 17th Lancers commissioned i the war)

[johntanner]

Can't see Warlow or Feary in the medal rolls

[IPT]

Penry Lloyd seems to have been quite a boy - http://cymru1914.org/en/view/newspaper/3856616/2

 

 

Also, I know that Lloyd is a common name, but I like to think A.B. was the Staff Sergeant Major who;

 

was slack - https://archives.library.wales/index.php/staff-sergeant-major-lloyd

and lost a horse - https://archives.library.wales/index.php/staff-sergeant-major-lloyd-and-lance-sergeant-price

[johnmelling1979]

Well apart from the newspaper clippings I also cant seem to find any records of names mentioned

 

No medal awards, pensions.

 

They hold rank.... so why no paper work or any mentions

 

nothing shows up on ancestry.co.uk

 

 

 

 

[johnmelling1979]

The newspaper article is dated 19th nov 1914...  the actual letter written on the 10th nov

They only landed in France on the 7th Nov as far as I know so that gives 3 days for a battle to start

 

It seems a bloody quick "heroic" report  

 

John

[johnmelling1979]

3 hours ago, IPT said:

We looked back and saw Lieutenant Feary fall. The shells and bullets were simply raining over us. Sergeant- major Lloyd jumped up and ran for his dear life and succeeded in reaching Lieutenant Feary, brought him back in his arms, and the poor fellow dropped just as he reached the trench, with about nine bullets in him.

 

Will 9 bullets holes I'm guessing he would have been killed.? yet no such person is on the http://www.cwgc.org/

[IPT]

1 minute ago, johnmelling1979 said:

9 bullets holes

 

There are more holes in the story.

[Mark1959]

Must admit it is extraordinary. We have some records Showing an ABL that served with the Welsh Horse that were in Norfolk; that fits in with LLT and has some cavalry link. We have service records that seem to point to Capt. Penry Lloyd's son that only refer to earlier S African service. Probably take a lot of research to sort the mess out. 

[Guest]

One could drive a coach and horses through the gaps in this story...

 

King Edward's Horse did not go overseas until April 1915 some five months after the alleged incident

17th Lancers were in Sialkot India and did not disembark in France until 7th Nov 1914 so the alleged transfer could not have happened before this date. The 17th lancer's war diary records receiving Reservist NCOs in Oct 1914 after arriving in France and assembling in Orleans. Note none were recorded as re-enlisted men.

Technically speaking any transfer after 1906 would have been to the 'Corps of Lancers' rather than the 17th Lancers. 

There is no Lt Feary in the 9th Lancers in the Army Lists of 1914

There is no Col Warlow in the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons in the Army Lists of 1914 

The 6th Inniskilling Dragoons were also in India (Mhow) and did not disembark until Dec 1914.

No-one called Feary or Warlow appears on the Officers 1914 Star roll in the Cavalry or the Staff.

The only Warlow listed in the Army List in 1914 are a A J Warlow Master Gunner and a Lt T W  Warlow 6th KOYLI. 

The only Feary listed in the Army List in 1914 is 2 Lt S Feary No. 2 (Irish) Cavalry Depot. The trouble with this is that he was not commissioned until 19th Oct 1914, over a month after the crossing of the Aisne. Another Lt S Feary (Royal Engineers) disembarked in the Dardanlees in July 1915. 

 

A re-enlisted former 17th Lancer could have served with any regiment. If he did enlist with King Edward's Horse and subsequently transfer to his old regiment (actually the Corps of Lancers) the most likely destination was the 2nd Life Guards which was brought up to War Establishment primarily with Reservists from the Corps of Lancers. It seems highly unlikely they would take in a re-enlisted man particularly in Aug 1914.  The problem with this is that the 2nd Life Guards didn't disembark until 7th October and did not operate anywhere near the Aisne in 1914 which was crossed by the BEF on 13th Sep 1914 nearly a month before they arrived. The 2nd Bn Royal Dublin Fusiliers did cross the Aisne on this date in the vicinity of La Montagne across an iron bridge at Venizel. 9th Lancers crossed the Aisne between Longueval and Pargnan at 08:00 on 13th Sep - probably Oeilly. The only officer recorded killed was Lucas-Tooth. The 9th Lancers were 21 km to the East of where the 2nd Bn RDF was operating. 

 

The Ainse was fought by the original BEF plus their first reinforcements which arrived at their battalions on 5th Sep 1914. For a re-enlisted man to be present at the crossing of the Ainse would be exceptional. Possible, but unlikely as the Army in Aug 1914 had plenty of Reservists to draw on. 

 

The other remote possibility is the Household Cavalry Composite Regiment which included some Hussars, Lancers and Dragoons (all Reservists) and included a Squadron of the 2nd Life Guards. It crossed the Aisne at Villers on 13th and relieved infantry in trenches at Geny on 15th Sep barely 1 km from the 9th Lancers  but still 21 km form the 2nd Bn RDF. The dispositions of the various units would make the event seem highly unlikely. The only possibility for these four mystery characters to have been in the same place at the same time would stretch imaginations a step too far. 

 

None of the available primary source material or secondary material comes close to substantiating any part of the story. I think is so unlikely as to be near impossible

 

"mitty-gating" factors aside. 

 

Martin 

Edited 26 August , 2017 by Guest

[Phill Jones]

Well , i never expected this !!!!- what a can of worms this one has turned up , thank you to all who have contributed to this thread , the plot does indeed thicken as i said if i uncover anymore???? i will post it here .

 

 

[johnmelling1979]

With the war having only just started could this have been a career boosting , war propaganda, nobody will ever find out.

 

My Grt Grandmothers cousin served in the 16 and  17 Lancer's ... a pity he's no longer alive I would have loved to have shown him all of the above.

 

I wonder what he would say ?

 

coincidence - I did find a soldier... he was a private.. but he on  went over 16 \12\ 1914

Name:	Alfred A Feary
Regiment or Corps:	6th Dragoons (Inniskilling)
	D/4563

 

 

Edited 26 August , 2017 by johnmelling1979