MILITARY CROSS- RECOMMENDATION RESCINDED?

[Guest]

   Just a speculation, which avid members who collect medals may know the answer to. I have a local casualty, Lt Leslie Rider Bumpus, KIA June 1917 as an artillery officer with AIF in France- exploding German shell airburst got him.  His service file on the excellent  "Discovering Anzacs" site has some chasing as the home authorities at first thought he was a holder of the MC.  Subsequently-in 1919- a check confirmed no award. Now,it seems a little unusual, even in the fog of war, not to know whether an officer had been awarded the MC-certainly not something the officer concerned would be daft enough to claim while still serving in France.

    BUT-and here is the speculation-  Bumpus  had 107 days away in hospital in late 1916- a VD hospital. Touchy topic even now- frowned on for the ORs but frowned on even more for officers. Just a suspicion that a recommendation for a MC might possibly have been  rescinded given his subsequent blotted copybook.  Is this at all possible?   Given when he arrived in France, when he was off being treated and the admin. process of MC awards, it seems just-just about possible-that this might have happened.

    Is it known whether any recommendations were cancelled before gazetting due to misconduct???  

[Medaler]

   Just a speculation, which avid members who collect medals may know the answer to. I have a local casualty, Lt Leslie Rider Bumpus, KIA June 1917 as an artillery officer with AIF in France- exploding German shell airburst got him.  His service file on the excellent  "Discovering Anzacs" site has some chasing as the home authorities at first thought he was a holder of the MC.  Subsequently-in 1919- a check confirmed no award. Now,it seems a little unusual, even in the fog of war, not to know whether an officer had been awarded the MC-certainly not something the officer concerned would be daft enough to claim while still serving in France.

    BUT-and here is the speculation-  Bumpus  had 107 days away in hospital in late 1916- a VD hospital. Touchy topic even now- frowned on for the ORs but frowned on even more for officers. Just a suspicion that a recommendation for a MC might possibly have been  rescinded given his subsequent blotted copybook.  Is this at all possible?   Given when he arrived in France, when he was off being treated and the admin. process of MC awards, it seems just-just about possible-that this might have happened.

    Is it known whether any recommendations were cancelled before gazetting due to misconduct???  

Hi,

Not sure about the "misconduct" angle, but the MC was not awarded posthumously. Maybe his death prevented a recommendation being followed through? Would need to know more about the timing of his recommendation relative to the date of his death to draw any conclusions.

 

Regards,

Mike

[Medaler]

Hiya,

 

Would need to look at Calder in more detail however, according to my theory, once it had been Gazetted, it became a fact that the bar was awarded. I don't think "charity" had anything to do with it, more like "army logic" - They couldn't prove he was dead, therefore he MUST be alive, therefore the bar was awarded. I will stress however that that is only a hunch on my part..

 

Of our Forum brethren, I suspect that Kim would be able to quote you chapter and verse. Gallantry awards are much more "up his street" than they are mine. I keep pulling his leg that we should remain friends because we will never bid against each other in auctions - our tastes are so different. Funny thing is, we can each see the attraction of what the other is doing.

 

Regards,

Mike

[yellow]

All recommendations for Australians have survived. I can find no recommendation for a Bumpus?

I was going to write a long reply about how I have come across recommendations that triggered no awards for the most fantastic heroism but that simply isn't relevant here. If there is no recommendation then there is no precursor for the award of the MC.

Sorry this many not be the answer you were looking for but the fact is there is no official record. The rumour of MC was probably spread from none official/millitary channels in my opinion.

 

Edited 26 August , 2017 by yellow

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

Yellow has probably got it right (although it is a pity he did not enlarge on recommendations for gallantry which nonetheless did not result in a medal).

Medaler was very kind to mention my name in connection with being knowlegeable about MCs. My grandfather (1918, AIF), father (1941, 2AIF) and uncle (1945, 2AIF) were decorated with the award, and therefore I know a lot about it - but really no more than other afficianados.

What is quite clear, however, is that decorations of any kind, were few and far between - a mere 177,000 or so MiDs for the Great War, for example - whereas the Germans awarded five and a half million EKIIs.

There were no doubt quotas for decorations. An element of luck certainly came into it, too - as well as the matter of who the person was; his position in the military hierachy and so on. (Some officers would have even been known personally by the senior officers involved in the Recommendation chain.) As an example: my grandfather was a Company Commander, and wounded in the (successful) 1 Sep 1918 action, during which a VC was awarded. (It is off-topic, but Dad was the Battalion Adjutant.) Clearly, a recommendation for gallantry was often not enough.

Kindest regards,

Kim.   

[rflory]

The rules on MC awards as I understand them state that the recommendation for the award must be in the command chain before the death of the individual recommended.  The date of his death relative to the date of the notification in the London Gazette had no effect on the award of the MC. There are numerous awards in the London Gazette that  demonstrate the fact that MCs were gazetted after the recipient died.  Some examples:

 

1.  2Lt Frederick Henry Anderson, RFA died on 15 May 1918 while serving with 50th Brigade, RFA. His MC was gazetted on 26 July 1918.

 

2. Captain Albert Anderton, RFA died of wounds on 5 April 1918 while serving with 110th Brigade RFA - the second bar to his MC was gazetted on 16 September 1918

 

3. Major Charles Elles Stuart Beatson, RFA died of wounds on 3 October 1917 while serving with 22nd Brigade, RFA - his MC was gazetted on 1 January 1918

 

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Dick,

Thanks for clarifying and adding your expertise: much appreciated!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Medaler]

3 hours ago, rflory said:

The rules on MC awards as I understand them state that the recommendation for the award must be in the command chain before the death of the individual recommended.  The date of his death relative to the date of the notification in the London Gazette had no effect on the award of the MC. There are numerous awards in the London Gazette that  demonstrate the fact that MCs were gazetted after the recipient died.  Some examples:

 

1.  2Lt Frederick Henry Anderson, RFA died on 15 May 1918 while serving with 50th Brigade, RFA. His MC was gazetted on 26 July 1918.

 

2. Captain Albert Anderton, RFA died of wounds on 5 April 1918 while serving with 110th Brigade RFA - the second bar to his MC was gazetted on 16 September 1918

 

3. Major Charles Elles Stuart Beatson, RFA died of wounds on 3 October 1917 while serving with 22nd Brigade, RFA - his MC was gazetted on 1 January 1918

 

 

 

Hi,

 

That is very interesting. The example I am aware of related to this chap........

 

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/38353/NORMAN, ISAAC THOMAS VICTOR

 

I have seen some of the paperwork concerning his recommendation, but can't remember where I have "filed" it now!

 

Many thanks for your input here. I did say at the outset that " I am only guessing here, but I presume that the NOK are only likely to have been sent the medal if the chap lived long enough to get his name in the Gazette. " - So it's really good to have some input from somebody who knows their way around these things better than I do. I am learning here too.

 

Regards,

Mike

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Mike,

We all started more-or-less from scratch.

I (born 1944) had always been familiar with my Dad's MC group, of course. However, I started serious Great War collecting and researching around about 1980...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Edited 26 August , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay

[1/1Hertfordshire]

As a side note to this topic, Major Alfred Anderton's CWGC grave marker states only the MC, however he does have the MC with two bars.

[Old Owl]

1 hour ago, 1/1Hertfordshire said:

As a side note to this topic, Major Alfred Anderton's CWGC grave marker states only the MC, however he does have the MC with two bars.

 

This is quite normal for CWGC headstones--I don't remember seeing the mention of a bar (or bars) to any gallantry award noted on a CWGC headstone. I guess that the number of letters carved was kept to a minimum where possible for the sake of cost and more likely for the space available.

 

Robert

[mancpal]

The only one that springs to mind is Noel Chavasse.

 

Simon

[1/1Hertfordshire]

Robert, I would say generally you are correct. I have one example in my photograph collection of 706029 E. Wilkinson MM and bar in Longuenesse Souvenir Cemetery. Interestingly, there is another soldier on his grave marker.