Query re WW1 uniform - Artillery

[Caroline1]

Good day to everyone.

 

 Please could you help me identify this uniform.  For members of this forum, I don't think it is difficult to identify the uniform in this photograph, but I have used my limited ability and I can't seem to figure it out.  

 

  I have done my best looking online but I am struggling with all the info out there.  I have looked at Artillery badges and they look nothing like the one he is wearing.

 

The man wearing it is Donovan George Nutt (who went out to Rhodesia after the war and lived and died there) who seems to belong as follows:  Regular Forces, Royal Regiment of Artillery, Royal Garrison Artillery, Infantry according to the attached promotion list. 

 

But he received a medal as follows from what I can find on Ancestry: 

 

George Nutt. Rank: Gunner. Medal Awarded: British War Medal and Victory Medal. Regiment or Corps: Royal Garrison Artillery. Regimental Number: 89195. Previous Units: Base Dtls, R.G.A. 89195 Gnr.

 

I am confused as I know he finished the war as a Lieutenant.

 

Could you tell me:

What the badge on his collar is and the buttons on the shoulders are?

The uniform is very smart.  Was it only worn on special occasions?

Is there another uniform that would be worn when fighting?

Would he have worn a different uniform when he was a Gunner?

Was he a member of the Regular Army, or a volunteer? Can that be told?

 

Is there any way of finding out where this Regiment fought in WW1?

 

Why would he have received a medal as a Gunner when he ended the war as a Lieutenant? I can’t find any info on him receiving other medals.

 

Forgive so many question please.

 

Many thanks.

 

[ss002d6252]

Why do you think George Nutt and Donovan George Nutt are the same man ?

 

Craig

[Sepoy]

Hi Caroline1

Welcome to the Forum.

Your photograph shows a Lieutenant (he has two Officer rank pips on his shoulder strap) in the Machine Gun Corps (indicated by the crossed Vickers Machine gun collar badge). His uniform is typical of that worn by Officers.

As for the medals, they would have been named showing the highest rank reached whilst serving in a theatre of War (prior to 11th November, 1918.) It is therefore possible that your chap served in a theatre of war, but was returned to the UK for some reason (wound/illness/or was simply returned) and was then commissioned and served in the UK.

Unfortunately, as it is late, I do not have time to trace your chap, but where did you get the Gunner's details? From his Medals?? and are you certain the photograph is of the same chap?

Sepoy
 

[Caroline1]

I am nearly sure they are the same person.  My "uncle" Don was christened George Donovan in the birth and christening records, but he was always DG Nutt.  And everyone called him Donovan.  And the census shows him as Donovan George.  I presume the Army called him by his birth name.   His death certificate is also under the name Donovan Nutt.

 

Caroline

 

 

Oh dear!  Now you have me wondering if it was too easy to tie up Donovan George and George because of the Royal Garrison Artillery connection.  I got that info from the Kew Archives website. 

 

From Kew Website archives. Lieutenant Donovan George NUTT. Machine Gun Corps. Date: 1914-1919. REGULAR FORCES. Royal Regiment of Artillery. Royal Garrison Artillery. Infantry. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C108580

Edited 10 August , 2017 by Caroline1

[Caroline1]

Thank you Sepoy.   That is useful information.  I am not sure of anything because Military things are not familiar to me.   I only recently got his photograph and I have tied all the info up.  I have been doing my family tree for longer than I remember and so I am really familiar with a good feeling about the correctness of something.  I have traced him as far as I can go in English records and on passenger ships to Africa and back after he left and records ended, as there are/were none in Rhodesia.   The photo is definitely of him, he was a wonderful man, and I of course can recognise him in the photos I have.

 

Caroline

 

[FROGSMILE]

I agree with Sepoy that the photo shows a Lieutenant in the Machine Gun Corps.

[Caroline1]

Thanks Frogsmile!

 

So tell me... why does that Promotion notification say Infantry?   Is that the same as Machine Gun Corps?

 

Edited 10 August , 2017 by Caroline1

[FROGSMILE]

35 minutes ago, Caroline1 said:

Thanks Frogsmile!

 

So tell me... why does that Promotion notification say Infantry?   Is that the same as Machine Gun Corps?

 

 

There were two branches of the Machine Gun Corps, which was raised during WW1 and disbanded shortly after.  One branch was infantry MGC(I)  and the other cavalry MGC(C), the intent being that the latter would be more mobile.  In the event the persistently static nature of trench warfare meant that the differential never really got off the ground.  The Corps was very large while it lasted and also spawned the Tank Corps, it was forward thinking and modern.  It's light burned brightly but briefly.  If you google the David and Goliath memorial in London you will see its last testimony.

Edited 11 August , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[squirrel]

The inscription on the main column reads: ERECTED TO COMMEMORATE THE GLORIOUS HEROES OF THE  MACHINE GUN CORPS  WHO FELL IN  THE GREAT WAR, and then below, a Biblical quotation from 1 Samuel 18:7: "Saul has slain his thousands but David his tens of thousands". The plinths to either side bear the dates MCMXIV and MCMXIX. A further inscription on the rear records that the Machine Gun Corps was formed in October 1915 and disbanded in 1922; in that time, some 11,500 officers and 159,000 other ranks served in the Corps, of whom 1,120 officers and 1,671 other ranks were killed, and 2,881 officers and 45,377 other ranks wounded, missing or prisoners-of-war. 

[Wexflyer]

48 minutes ago, squirrel said:

... of whom 1,120 officers and 1,671 other ranks were killed, and 2,881 officers and 45,377 other ranks wounded, missing or prisoners-of-war. 

 

A bit of a tangent I know, but the ratios of killed to wounded for officers and enlisted, and officers versus enlisted, don't look like they can be correct.

Edited 11 August , 2017 by Wexflyer

[Caroline1]

Thanks everyone.

 

Just one more thing that I should like to know.   Why does it say on that London Gazette - Regular Forces?  My dad was in the RNVR in WW2 and that, as it's name says, is Voluntary.  Or do I misunderstand, and is there something such as an Irregular Force?

[Caroline1]

11 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Why do you think George Nutt and Donovan George Nutt are the same man ?

 

Craig

 

That was a very good question.  Someone else told me he was a Gunner, and so I mistakenly put together.  I can see now that I have more information about how it all comes about, that they are likely not to be the same man.  (There are an awful lot of G Nutts in Ancestry Military records) 

 

If that London Gazette gives his promotion as 9 January 1915, then could I assume that from the outbreak until that date, he was training to be an officer?  For others it says "  Undermentioned ex-cadet of the Officers Training Course" but not for all of them.  I am no doubt in the wrong forum, but how long did it take to train an officer?  That would be 6 months from the outbreak of the war according to this info in the Gazette.

[charlie962]

I suspect Royal Artillery is a red herring. when they said gunner they meant machine-gunner?

 

Some of your questions will be answered by getting to see his Officers Service Record held at Kew. Unfortunately it requires a personal visit or you'll have to pay a researcher. The reference is here (you may have already noted this)

              

 

There is a reference to him in a cricket site (behind a pay-wall) but enough to see he was born 1895 and was at Brighton College just before the war. Maybe he was in the OTC ?

              

  

I note there is a Geoffrey Nutt commisioned in 1914 from Brighton OTC- any relation?  [edit-  Isee he was one of the 5 brothers!]          

             

 

Have you contacted Brighton College Archivist?

             

 

Is this the same man? or another brother?

He was a Prisoner of War   in WW2. This record, amongst others) is on Findmypast:

Wikipedia tells you something about the camp history here

         

First name(s)	G. D.
Last name	Nutt
Service number	-
Rank	Lieutenant (A) R.N.
Regiment/corps	Naval Forces : Officers & Ratings
Year	-
Prison camp or ship	Westertimke (Tarnstedt)
Camp type	Marlag Und Milag Nord
Section	Naval Forces : Officers & Ratings
Camp number	M & MN
Camp location	Westertimke (Tarnstedt)

Edited 11 August , 2017 by charlie962

[charlie962]

with a distinctive name like Donovan Nutt it is not hard to get 'hits' wherever one searches.

 

Here is a little snippet from A newspaper on FindmyPast that lists men of Derby

                

 

Charlie           

[mark holden]

To digress slightly I note Lt G D Nutt is wearing embroidered as opposed to metal MGC collar badges which I think is rather unusual .

[squirrel]

7 hours ago, Wexflyer said:

 

A bit of a tangent I know, but the ratios of killed to wounded for officers and enlisted, and officers versus enlisted, don't look like they can be correct.

As you say, it doesn't look right on a second look - should have double checked before I posted.

The MGC Old Comrades Association site gives the following figures :"some 170,500 officers and men served in the MGC with 62,049 becoming casualties including 12,498 being killed". The total of deaths is about 400 odd different. between the two sources The number of Officers and men who served is the same from both sources.Looks like in my original post the number of other ranks killed should be 11,671 and not 1,671.

 

[Ron Clifton]

5 hours ago, Caroline1 said:

Why does it say on that London Gazette - Regular Forces?

This is to distinguish those joining either the ordinary Regular Army, which includes the "New Army" units formed earlier in the war, from the Territorial Force (later the Territorial Army). The terms of service were different until the introduction of conscription under the Military Service Acts in 1916.

 

The list from the London Gazette in your original post clearly shows that Donovan George Nutt was commissioned into the infantry and it would seem likely that, after the Machine Gun Corps was formed later in 1915, he transferred into it. Most of the MGC officers followed the same route. Under the general heading of "Regular Forces", the Gazette lists names grouped in the normal ranking order of corps, so artillery comes before infantry, so D G Nutt is listed among the infantry and after the artillery, not among the artillery, if you see what I mean.

 

I don't think he is the same man as the George Nutt who served in the ranks (as a Gunner) in the Royal Garrison Artillery.

 

Ron

[Caroline1]

Thanks Ron Clifton, for this latest info.  I agree - on reflection I don't think he is the same George Nutt, who was a Gunner.  (Note to self:  Always check out hearsay information!)

 

[Caroline1]

 

 

I assume Don entered the war as a Cadet Corporal from the Brighton College Contingent where he attended school.  Can't find on the Govt Gazette.

 

His brother Allan Vaughan Nutt ended the war as a Lieut Colonel D.S.O., York and Lancaster R.

 

Another brother Geoffrey was also a Lieutenant with Notts & Derby R.  Also entered the war as a Cadet Corporal from Brighton College Contingent as per Govt. Gazette.

 

They were all brought up at 111 Whitaker Rd, Derby.

 

Many thanks to everyone for the info.  Very interesting stuff.

Edited 16 August , 2017 by Caroline1

[Caroline1]

Charlie962.   I live in South Africa so not possible to visit Kew although I have done so in the past on visits.   In South African Rand (our currency it was down in recent years)  it would not be cheap to order this record, so I will just go on what I have, which seems to be getting more accurate the past week or so.  

[charlie962]

The snippet in post 14 refers to Public Schools Bn. The LongLongTrail says this

 

21st (Service) Battalion (4th Public Schools) Royal Fusiliers
Formed at Epsom on 11 September 1914 by the Public Schools and University Men's Force.
26 June 1915 : came under command of 98th Brigade, 33rd Division.
Landed in France in November 1915.
27 February 1916 : transferred to GHQ; disbanded on 24 April 1916 with many of the men being commissioned as officers.

 

Perhaps he joined them and was commissioned out of them?