Hackney Gurkhas

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, Steve B said:

 

With regard to the lineage of the 10^th Londons it should be borne in mind that when the original 10^th London Regiment, the Paddington Rifles, was disbanded in 1912 and replaced by a battalion raised in Hackney all links to the Paddington Rifles and its rifle volunteer antecedents were severed. The 10^th (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (Hackney) was a completely new unit and had the uniform and drill of a line regiment, so the existence of a Corps of Drums rather than Bugles is not entirely unexpected.

Yes, that’s a very good point Steve, and makes sense, although it remains rather odd to see the group all with bugles.  That said I do recall seeing drummers of the battalion in which I served practising their bugle notes and calls collectively and perhaps that’s what had been going on before the photo was taken.

 

NB.  My understanding is that rifle units were still ‘line regiments’ apart from the Rifle Brigade, who were taken out as a special honour.

Edited 20 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

I agree in general that the re-raised 1912 10/LR were redcoats with little rifles tradition.  Three of their original companies were anyway from the Essex Regt - pure redcoats!

 

I think we have a post somewhere here on GWF that gives info as to where the original men of 10/LR (Paddington Rifles) transferred - IIRC they were absorbed by 3/LR.  I think it was on the thread on the Harrow Road drill hall?

 

Some notes on 10/LR from Wienand Drenth of this parish ...

Quote

Raised 17 Oct. 1912 with HQ and A - H Coys at The Grove, Hackney as 10th (County of London) Bn, The London Regt (Hackney) taking three coys from 7th Bn, The Essex Regt

 

When the new battalion was raised in 1912, it seems it took over the territory around Hackney from 7th Essex Regt, but only three of the coys.  I cannot find anything confirming whether the other coys were transferred from another TF unit or were new recruits.  The rest of 7th Essex consolidated to the NE of the River Lea around Walthamstow [source TF Mills].  According to Westlake, 7th Essex Regt had its roots in 4th Essex RVC headquartered in Silvertown, but moved to Leyton in 1900.  The establishment was then eleven coys, but was back to eight by 1913 [source TF Mills].  4th Essex RVC went into redcoats in 1902.

 

However despite this, 10/LR were affiliated to The Rifle Brigade under AO 250 of 1916 effective 07 Jul 1916 ...

 

This covered 1st/10th, 2nd/10th and the 10th (Reserve) Bn, (designated as 3rd/10th prior to 08 Apr 1916).

 

According to Wienand, 1st/10th was reduced to cadre in Egypt in Sep 1919 and disembodied in ?Mar 1920; 2nd/10th was reduced to cadre in France and then disembodied on 22 Aug 1919 in London; 3rd/10th aka 10th (Res) Bn, LR, was disembodied at Cosham on 31 Dec 1919.

 

The unit was reconstituted as a single battalion on 07 Feb 1920.

 

Under AO 49 of 1926, the affiliation to The Rifle Brigade was continued.

 

10/LR was eventually affiliated to the Royal Berkshire Regt on 30 May 1929.  I don't have the AO ref for this though.

 

As I said at the top, I don't think the re-formed 10/LR had strong rifles traditions and I suspect the 1916 affiliation to the RB was not of great significance.  It may have had more to do with the old 10th London (Paddington Rifles) pre-1908 affiliation to the RB.  Andy can comment more definitively on that.

 

It would be interesting to check whether any rifles Regulars served in the 10th battalion pre-war as e.g. RSM and Adjutant - this was very common in those KRRC and RB affiliated LR battalions that definitely did have rifles traditions.

 

Mark

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

That’s very interesting, Mark, thank you for posting.  I agree that the RB affiliation probably had little effect in among the exigencies of war.  I’m split between the idea that it’s just a coincidental photograph of the battalion’s drummers practising with bugles, or that perhaps there was some kind of pan-London Regiment rifles imbued culture that allowed bugles to dominate.  That seems much less likely to me though.

[Guest]

Mark, thank you for a very interesting post re. Hackney and 7th Essex.  Illuminating to me for the latter unit. What I do not understand is why this TF area was split up in the first place. 7th Essex  suffered badly as a result and it was not match fit in August 1914, having not made the deficiencies from losing half it's recruiting area to the south. In addition, the tribal loyalties of pre-1914 county geography suggest a bit of an anomaly- Hackney is in Middlesex not Essex-  so I suspect the reason for the adjustment of the areas may have been the "county" set-up-and that London TFA was actually quite powerful.

[stiletto_33853]

Mark,

Agreed re the Paddingtons, they all went to the 3rd London Regiment.

 

A lot of RB men, after the 10th Londons became a Territorial unit of the RB, were attached/posted as they were to the other units affiliated to the RB after AO250. Some fully posted adopting London Regiment numbers, also a lot attached keeping their RB numbers. The later medal rolls contain page after page of attachments to 8th, 10th, 17th & 28th Londons. 

 

Andy

[Guest]

But a small puzzle for me with one local casualty of 2/10 LR, kia on 24th August 1918 (actually the attack at Epehy on 21st August-2/10 were out of the line on 24th).  My man was called up in January 1916 but 2/10 LR seem very late in getting to France- only from February 1917. Even then, the War Diary shows that it was seriously understrength-300 ORs and 13 officers.  Does anyone know why 2/10 were so slow in being sent to France or why they were so short of manpower when they got there??

[Steve B]

But a small puzzle for me with one local casualty of 2/10 LR, kia on 24th August 1918 (actually the attack at Epehy on 21st August-2/10 were out of the line on 24th).  My man was called up in January 1916 but 2/10 LR seem very late in getting to France- only from February 1917. Even then, the War Diary shows that it was seriously understrength-300 ORs and 13 officers.  Does anyone know why 2/10 were so slow in being sent to France or why they were so short of manpower when they got there??

 

The marching out state submitted by the 2/10th London Regiment on 04th February 1917, the day it departed for France, showed the battalion had a strength of 37 officers and 958 men (including attached and supernumerary personnel). 

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[Steve B]

 

 

In addition, the 2/10th Londons were in the line on 24th August 1918. As part of 175 Brigade they had been attached to the 47th (London) Division and took part in the attack at Happy Valley. Battalion casualties were 26 killed, 121 wounded, 2 missing and 2 gassed. The attack on Epehy took place in September 1918. 

 

With regard to your local casualty, my Grandfather also joined the 2/10th in January 1916. He had originally enlisted under the Derby Scheme in 1915 and was recalled to the Colours in January the following year. There is a strong possibility that this was the same situation for your local man as the Battalion diary records the arrival of significant numbers of Derby men at this time. 

 

Steve

[Guest]

Thanks Steve-  Will check the WD again-  Yes, I was at the wrong month in WD when I wrote.

 

      My man was unmarried and called up 10th November 1915.  He was one of 3 sons, 2 of them living with parents-who were poor. The oldest son, flown the nest, had already joined the Middlesex Regiment.  The next son has taken the bounty as a motor driver for ASC Resreves in July 1914 and was called up on 5th August 1914- served France from 16th August 1914 until discharged unfit in January 1918. This man , George Frederick Aylott, was a 20 year old railway porter for the Great Eastern Railway at Forest Gate. I suspect that he did not volunteer as he was an income in a poor household. -common enough for one son to remain to keep the household afloat but conscription was not so tolerant. Claim after the war for pension made by mother suggests this was the case.

    Still slightly puzzled-despite my errors-as to why 2/10 was not out in France during the latter part of 1916.

(And I have one more man for 2/10 to do- one of a number transferred from the Rifle Brigade-any diea when this took place?)

 

    I have yet to see the little booklet by Peter Wardrop on 10th Londons

 

Thanks again

 

 

 

[Steve B]

 

 

Of the 2nd Line Territorial Divisions that made it to the Front, only two had arrived by 1916. The remainder (57th, 58th, 59th, 62nd and 66th) didn't make it over to France until January and February 1917. I'm sure more learned members of the Forum can give a full explanation as to why it took so long for them to be moved to the Western Front, but I'd guess that in the grand scheme of things lowly Second Line Territorials were at the back of a very long queue for allocation of equipment and resources which would have hampered training, and the constant haemorrhaging of trained personnel to their First Line counterparts, particularly in the early stages of the war, would have done them no favours at all either. 

 

If George Aylott joined the Army in November 1915 he would still have been a volunteer, as conscription via the Military Service Act didn't come into effect until March 1916. With the 2 month delay between him attesting and then being called forward to join the 2/10th Londons I'd still say that this fits the pattern of someone joining under the Derby Scheme, which at least gave George the option to return to his civilian employment until the Army needed his services. 

 

I've done a fair amount of research into Rifle Brigade personnel who ended up in the 2/10th. The first mass transfer I identified was a large group that trained with the RB in England and then went straight out to the 10th Londons in August 1918. If you give me some details of the man you're looking at I'll see if I can match him with any of the information I've dug up.

 

Regards,

 

Steve