Terry Carter Posted 28 May , 2017 Share Posted 28 May , 2017 Would this be the maker's stamp on this Friction Tube. I'm hoping to tie it up to a Birmingham manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegwf Posted 28 May , 2017 Share Posted 28 May , 2017 Hello Terry, Please educate this uneducated forum member.... What is a friction tube ? I hope you are doing well ! Gene Feeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Carter Posted 28 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2017 Hi Gene Hope you are keeping well. A Friction Tube in layman's talk was used to detonate the explosive in artillery guns. During the Great War period the city of Birmingham was responsible for the manufacture of 18 pounder and 4.5 inch HE Shells. Also Primers, Gains, Fuzes and Friction Tubes. I did not know what a Friction Tube was until I Googled it and bought one off t'Internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 28 May , 2017 Share Posted 28 May , 2017 (edited) Hi Terry, Sorry to be pedantic but the friction tube ignited the propellant charge rather than detonated it. These were used with "case-less" ammunition which had been very popular with British Artillery. The old 15-pounders from the Boer War and earlier, the 60-pounder field gun, 4.7-inch field gun, 6-inch 26cwt howitzer and a number of other heavy guns. They had started with muzzle loading artillery. Essentially they were a copper or brass tube filled with black powder, topped with a match compound and fitted with a wire loop. A lanyard was fitted to the wire loop, pulled sharply to ignite the match composition, hence the black powder and the flash into the breach ignited the main charge. With breach loading artillery in WW1 the Mk IV T-shaped tubes were used. The breach was sealed gas tight by an obturating pad fitted to the inside of the steel breach block. Once the gun was loaded the friction tube was fitted into a holder on the outside of the breach block. Inside the tube is a steel ball bearing. On firing the ball moves back to seal the flame path so that flame and gases cannot vent through the friction tube. There is an excellent display of friction tubes at the Fort Nelson Museum. Unfortunately, I cannot help with the original request as I have no information on the manufacturers markings for different makers. Cheers Ross Early pattern tube and friction bar Edited 28 May , 2017 by Chasemuseum spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new3.2 Posted 28 May , 2017 Share Posted 28 May , 2017 In the US they are known as Friction Primers. new3.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 29 May , 2017 Share Posted 29 May , 2017 Terry, I have had a look at the list I have of friction tube manufacturers; unfortunately, the maker of your example is not on the list. Interestingly there are 43 manufacturers of friction tubes shown on the list of which over 20 were in Birmingham. I attach a couple of photos of friction tubes in my collection in case they are of interest. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanayca Posted 29 May , 2017 Share Posted 29 May , 2017 Really interesting, thanks for the explanations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sh Posted 31 January , 2023 Share Posted 31 January , 2023 On 29/05/2017 at 08:56, Michael Haselgrove said: Terry, I have had a look at the list I have of friction tube manufacturers; unfortunately, the maker of your example is not on the list. Interestingly there are 43 manufacturers of friction tubes shown on the list of which over 20 were in Birmingham. I attach a couple of photos of friction tubes in my collection in case they are of interest. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sh Posted 31 January , 2023 Share Posted 31 January , 2023 Hello Michael, I just stumbled on your post of a few years ago. We have a Palmerstone Fort on Culver Cliff on the Isle of Wight and some of the Volunteers are trying to reverse engineer some of the fixtures and fitting as they have all been removed. Are there any drawings or dimensions and materials for the Friction Tubes. There is an original Fuze and Tube shelf at another battery which we can replicate but it would be nice to see it populated it with some replica items. Thank you in advance for any help. David S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Posted 31 January , 2023 Share Posted 31 January , 2023 The drawing below is of a Mk IV friction T-Tube as used on the Ordnance BL 6-inch 30 cwt howitzer just before WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sh Posted 31 January , 2023 Share Posted 31 January , 2023 5 minutes ago, Spaceman said: The drawing below is of a Mk IV friction T-Tube as used on the Ordnance BL 6-inch 30 cwt howitzer just before WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sh Posted 31 January , 2023 Share Posted 31 January , 2023 Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Posted 31 January , 2023 Share Posted 31 January , 2023 Here's a Mk I for comparison: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sh Posted 31 January , 2023 Share Posted 31 January , 2023 4 minutes ago, Spaceman said: Here's a Mk I for comparison: Thank you, was this for the same gun as the Mark IV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 31 January , 2023 Share Posted 31 January , 2023 Yes. The "T" tubes of different marks are interchangeable and represent progressive improvements in the design of the tubes. The "T" tubes date from the mid 1890s through WW1. Michael's collection above (a very impressive collection) includes a number of earlier types of tubes. The early tubes were fitted through a "Vent" hole in the top of the barrel of a gun. The earliest use of "T" tubes was also through a vent in the top of the barrel. Whether you want a "T" tube or an early tube for a barrel vent depends on the type of coastal fortress gun you are using. You will find this data in the relevant handbook for the artillery pieces that you have or were used at your fort. A huge number of the Victorian era artillery handbooks are now available on the internet. Cheers Ross PS if you nominate the models of guns used by your fort, members will be able to assist you in the search for the handbooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sh Posted 31 January , 2023 Share Posted 31 January , 2023 1 hour ago, Chasemuseum said: Yes. The "T" tubes of different marks are interchangeable and represent progressive improvements in the design of the tubes. The "T" tubes date from the mid 1890s through WW1. Michael's collection above (a very impressive collection) includes a number of earlier types of tubes. The early tubes were fitted through a "Vent" hole in the top of the barrel of a gun. The earliest use of "T" tubes was also through a vent in the top of the barrel. Whether you want a "T" tube or an early tube for a barrel vent depends on the type of coastal fortress gun you are using. You will find this data in the relevant handbook for the artillery pieces that you have or were used at your fort. A huge number of the Victorian era artillery handbooks are now available on the internet. Cheers Ross PS if you nominate the models of guns used by your fort, members will be able to assist you in the search for the handbooks. Thank you, I will find out the armaments used at the fort and post when I get the information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 1 February , 2023 Share Posted 1 February , 2023 I am fairly ignorant of the Isle of Wight, I have had a quick look at the relevant wikipedia and Victorian forts pages. https://www.victorianforts.co.uk/pdf/datasheets/culver.pdf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culver_Battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_9.2-inch_Mk_IX_–_X_naval_gun Culver battery, was completed in 1906 and had two 9.2-inch Mk X coastal guns. Various other smaller guns were also installed at different times, for different purposes (eg 3.7-inch AA guns during WW2 as AA cover) The main guns would have used a different type of igniter to the "T- friction tube". The igniters were similar to a blank rifle cartridge and both electric and percussion models re used. This link will access the handbook https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE5281038&mode=browse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sh Posted 1 February , 2023 Share Posted 1 February , 2023 7 hours ago, Chasemuseum said: I am fairly ignorant of the Isle of Wight, I have had a quick look at the relevant wikipedia and Victorian forts pages. https://www.victorianforts.co.uk/pdf/datasheets/culver.pdf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culver_Battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_9.2-inch_Mk_IX_–_X_naval_gun Culver battery, was completed in 1906 and had two 9.2-inch Mk X coastal guns. Various other smaller guns were also installed at different times, for different purposes (eg 3.7-inch AA guns during WW2 as AA cover) The main guns would have used a different type of igniter to the "T- friction tube". The igniters were similar to a blank rifle cartridge and both electric and percussion models re used. This link will access the handbook https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE5281038&mode=browse Thank you for the information. It is Bembridge Fort that I am interested in, it is an earlier fortress. Most of the internal fittings have been removed, it would be good to try to reinstate some replica fittings for visitors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bembridge_Fort https://www.victorianforts.co.uk/pdf/datasheets/bembridge.pdf I notice in the Victorian Forts information it has the armaments listed. Culver Battery is further along the cliff and a newer construction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 1 February , 2023 Share Posted 1 February , 2023 For the primary artillery 1869 two 7-inch Rifle breach loaders - these are the early Armstrong type BL There are actually several versions of the mounting. No idea which is relevant to your fort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBL_7-inch_Armstrong_gun handbook https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE5314522&mode=browse 1893 replace above with two 4-inch breach loader on siege carriage 1890 Handbook https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE5363954&mode=browse 1904 Handbook https://archive.org/details/HandbookOfThe4InchGunMarksVAndV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_4-inch_Mk_I_–_VI_naval_gun together with six 64-pr RML (Rifled Muzzle Loaders, 71 cwt on 6ft parapet carriages These guns were mounted on a variety of different carriages, the "Victorian Forts" website data sheet nominates a "6-foot Parapet carriage", as the mounting used but this does not appear in the 1887 edition of the Handbook. If any of the steel rails for traversing the guns remain, this is likely to give a good indication of which pattern of mounting was used. Handbook https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE5502139&mode=browse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RML_64-pounder_71_cwt_gun With respect the field artillery and carriage mounted machineguns held at the fort prior to WW1, these were the 15-pounder breach loading guns and the 5-inch breach loading howitzers, together with carriage mounted .303-inch maxim machine guns. Both of the guns used the "T-friction tube" igniters from the original discussions. There is a mountain of internet resources available on these weapons. Both are covered with excellent detail in Len Trawin's book "Early British Quick Firing Artillery" https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=31014924117&searchurl=an%3Dlen%2Btrawin%26kn%3Dearly%2Bbritish%2Bartillery%26sortby%3D17&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title1 The 15-pr gun came in 4 different marks and on 4 different marks of carriages. You really need to find photos of the guns at the fort to work out which mark of gun, the Mk II & Mk IV guns are too similar to separate in photos. The various carriages are quite different. For the period that they were held at the fort, it could be any Mark of gun and most marks of carriage but not a Mk II. For the 5-inch howitzer, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_5-inch_howitzer 1905 Handbook https://viewer.slv.vic.gov.au/?entity=IE5293989&mode=browse note Victoria State library has scans available of about 4 different editions of this handbook. With respect the carriage mounted Maxims, there is a superb Bristish Army handbook on the subject published about 1904. Unfortunately I do not have my copy to hand. I have not seen an electronic copy of this but it is probably available. Anyway David, I hope that you find the above useful. Cheers Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 Ok, for this bayonet-fixated GWF pal, please, what does a friction tube do when it is at home? Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 58 minutes ago, trajan said: Ok, for this bayonet-fixated GWF pal, please, what does a friction tube do when it is at home? Julian Like the primer in a smallarms cartridge, it fired the propellant charge in an artillery piece - usually, but not invariably a bagged charge - using the withdrawal of a serrated friction pin to initiate the process rather than the impact of a firing pin. Usually there was a small powder charge to amplify the effect, often further augmented by a powder pocket in the adjacent end of the charge bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 The quick answer, for artillery, when not using a cartridge case, a device to ignite the main propellant charge of the canon in a safe manner limiting high pressure gas erosion damage. The long answer Traditional muzzle loading artillery up to the mid c19 had the charge ignited by filling the "vent" with fine grain black powder. Through some mechanism (a slow match on a stick or a flintlock mechanism activated by a lanyard or whatever) the powder in the vent was ignited and the burning flashed through the vent to ignite the main charge and fire the canon. The high pressure gases in the chamber of the gun as well as expelling the projectile also shot out the vent hole. This caused severe erosion of the vent which would shorten the life of the canon. A friction tube was a copper or brass tube filled with an explosive like mixture. At the outer end was a wire and a match composition. The tube would be placed in the vent, with some retaining mechanism and a lanyard fitted to the wire and pulled to ignite the match compound. This ignited the mixture in the tube which ignited the main charge. The earliest friction tubes still allowed high pressure gasses to vent through the tube, eroding metal from the tube but generally not damaging the gun. As smokeless powder which generate higher pressures were introduced the friction tubes started to include a steel ball or plunger in the design, which would allow the initial flash to pass down into the chamber of the gun, but would act as a check valve to prevent gasses exhausting back out through the igniter tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 Many thanks both. MikB and Chase! I had assumed it was some kind of device for firing the main charge but was confused by the name 'friction tube'! Made me think of matches... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 The first part of the ignition is a "match" composition. Pulling the wire out is just like striking a match, except that the wire is like the side of the matchbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 February , 2023 Share Posted 2 February , 2023 Thanks - now I get why it is a 'friction tube'! We learn something new every day, as I tell my students! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now