Gunner Bailey Posted 3 May , 2017 Share Posted 3 May , 2017 The other day I was thinking about selling my Pioneer's Axe and Carrier, but decided against it. It's probably the best one I've seen and I've never seen another carrier. The carrier is dated 1907. Here's some photos for the enjoyment of others! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 May , 2017 Share Posted 3 May , 2017 What a superb pair you have there! How on earth could you ever think of parting? Is the axe maker- or unit-marked in any way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 3 May , 2017 Share Posted 3 May , 2017 Think on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 3 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2017 No, sadly it's not maker marked. I've never seen one that was though to be truthful normally they are in relic or semi relic condition. The mark that is visible on the head looks to be a small fault in manufacture. The two pieces were not bought together. I bought the axe at a French militaria fair about 10 years ago and the carrier was found about 3 years later. The axe looks as though the wood was kept wax polished for many years and has a lovely patina. It looks to have seen limited use and has some marks from use on the handle. The blade is very clean and it has the original rivets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 3 May , 2017 Share Posted 3 May , 2017 I totally agree, that is the best example that I have ever seen, khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearhug Posted 9 May , 2017 Share Posted 9 May , 2017 Good Decision not to sell it! You will never find a similar one again i a Lifetime. Really an awesome Beauty! The Leather seems absolutly not brittle. Thank you for Showing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eparges Posted 13 May , 2017 Share Posted 13 May , 2017 (edited) Hi, sorry to barge in, but 'best I've ever seen'....Your 'Beilpicke'-carrier is...well, decide for yourself: * this type was introduced in 1909..so the 1907 marking can't be correct (which in form, lettering is allready wrong) * closure strap replaced by buckle/strap * helve extention removed * the carrying straps are replaced * rivets indicate a wartime production... if the 'modifications' are old, it's probably an ex-bulgarian army stock, turn up regularly...And to be precise: its not a 'Pioneers' tool, but standard infantry tool, I believe 24 were distributed within a company. Sorry for the, probable, disappointment... Here's what it should look like.... Edited 13 May , 2017 by eparges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 14 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2017 Thanks for your contribution. Regarding " ex-bulgarian army stock, turn up regularly" , I've been going to militaria fairs in France for 14 years and have never seen another. Have you got any published document that clarifies changes of type / modifications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eparges Posted 14 May , 2017 Share Posted 14 May , 2017 Hi, if you go to the german equipment section on eubai US, you'll find several bulgarian sellers, with ex-bulgarian-ex-german equipments, some 'modified'. They often reappear, for exemple on eubai FR, Uk, re-re-modified' ('transformed back'). I encounter them regularly on fairs in France, Belgium etc. Again, the marking is also bogus. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 14 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 14 May , 2017 Hi Esparges I've had a look on the Axe carriers from Bulgaria on ebay and they are nothing like mine or the one you have displayed. The forum rules preclude me from publishing the images on ebay, They seem to be square and mainly WW2. Here's a link for a WW1 version http://www.ebay.ca/itm/ORIGINAL-GERMAN-WW1-LEATHER-COVER-PIONEER-AXE-RARE-/391779377808?hash=item5b37dee290:g:IFQAAOSwB-1Y59pS Quite simply none of the Bulgarian 'WW1' carriers looked like yours or mine. So unless you can 1. show a German document that clarifies the 1909 date you stated or 2. the change of shape around that time, we will have to have different opinions. I'd just like evidence of what you are saying please. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eparges Posted 14 May , 2017 Share Posted 14 May , 2017 Check Kraus for details on introduction date ('Preuss. KM 271.7.09 A2). i didn't say the pickcarriers on eubai were like yours, just indicating bulgarian sellers and their surplus. My contribution ends here, place your carrier on forum dedicated to this kind of material Regards, René Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 14 May , 2017 Share Posted 14 May , 2017 Sorry GB but I'm with Eparges. No axe to grind but IMHO it's wrong, sorry. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 15 May , 2017 Share Posted 15 May , 2017 Maybe I am missing something? GW German equipment has turned up in war and postwar years in use almost everywhere, Turkey, Finland, Bulgaria to name a few, what does it really matter where and when things were used ?, I have many German items with marks that show later usage by other Nations some modified some just with acceptance marks. To me its just another page in the history of that item. Gunner Bailey went to the trouble to show us something that he is obviously proud of, (most of the axes I have seen have been in relic condition), I would be more than happy to have one in as good a condition. If I didn't mention it GB thanks for showing us. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 15 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2017 1 hour ago, Khaki said: If I didn't mention it GB thanks for showing us. khaki A pleasure. Thanks for your post. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 15 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2017 12 hours ago, eparges said: Check Kraus for details on introduction date ('Preuss. KM 271.7.09 A2). i didn't say the pickcarriers on eubai were like yours, just indicating bulgarian sellers and their surplus. My contribution ends here, place your carrier on forum dedicated to this kind of material Regards, René Rather than me go on a Europe wide chase to find this book can you please scan or photograph the relevant entry please? Otherwise there is no evidence. 11 hours ago, trenchtrotter said: Sorry GB but I'm with Eparges. No axe to grind but IMHO it's wrong, sorry. TT Based upon what? Do you have evidence that Esparges is right. If so I will gladly accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 15 May , 2017 Share Posted 15 May , 2017 Detailed pics are hard to find however there is an image of a German Soldier with one on his belt in WW1 Infantry by Laurent Mirouze who is perhaps the foremost collector in France. That one has extension below carrier for head and is where the handle would slip into the loop at the bottom. Also the closure for the axe head is a stud like one in Eparges pic. All that said though it's my opinion only and I would have my doubts. The axe itself is nice. It is your item and if your ok with it that's all good. If you post pics of Military items you always stand a chance of people either raving about it, confirming what you know or expressing doubt. Just see the battles about helmet authenticity on web sites arms social media esp WW2 German ones. Either way it's yours and you have to be happy. If you are super. It's happened to me also. As for Khakis comment he is right in what he says. Every item tells a story and whatever the outcome we are grateful for the post. It is a debate on authenticity and should be encouraged. If it is wrong then faults should with due respect be pointed out too. It's not done out of spite but for accuracy. Collecting ehhh! Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 15 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2017 Thanks TT for your well considered reply. It's appreciated. I sometimes think there are too many experts in the world. It's well known that things like Dates on Lists of Changes are not accurate, so why should it be different in France, Germany or Bulgaria. In wartime, specifications change as they do in peacetime and there are many instances where 'facts' don't match the physical evidence. An example being another thread I put in this category about a WW1 water bottle. Made in 1917 but 1901 pattern. Where is the logic of that? A pre war expensive leather item made alongside the routine webbing article made for Tommy Atkins. In the area of grenades, which are my main interest, there are instances of dates, marks not matching up. That is why I doubt the robustness of Rene's certainty about 1907 - 1909. Also the Bulgarian factor seems to be a red herring with no examples found. I try to base my beliefs on physical evidence that I then check against official sources. As I have said I have never found another of these carriers at French or UK fairs and if they were being shipped from Bulgaria or elsewhere, even in small quantities, I would have seen at least one. I'm not really a general WW1 collector. I buy things that interest me and then after a few years sell it to fund other purchases. Even as a grenade collector I have fewer rather than many. I'm left with a well used and aged axe carrier and a lovely axe to go with it. If everything stops there, that's fine with me. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 15 May , 2017 Share Posted 15 May , 2017 John. All good. BTW you got me buying grenades. since you sowed the seed I have bought No2 MkII No 19 No 20 No 23 No 24 No 36 Lovely M17 German stick French F1 x 2 Arghhhhhh TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 15 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2017 Oh dear...should I apologise? I find grenades fascinating because they are an intimate weapon. You can normally see the target in a handful of yards. Rifle grenades were new technology thanks to FM Hale and are a very diverse category in the Great War. I've got about 60 Mills, 20 rifle grenades and a variety of French and German others. That's a tale for the bar.. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 20 May , 2017 Share Posted 20 May , 2017 On 15 May 2017 at 04:21, Gunner Bailey said: So unless you can 1. show a German document that clarifies the 1909 date you stated or 2. the change of shape around that time, we will have to have different opinions. I'd just like evidence of what you are saying please. John What evidence is there that this carrier is WW1 German? Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 21 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 21 May , 2017 What evidence is there that it is not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromelles Posted 24 May , 2017 Share Posted 24 May , 2017 On 21 May 2017 at 16:35, Gunner Bailey said: What evidence is there that it is not? Exactly! Looks to me like the jury is still out till a stronger argument can be made both for and against Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 May , 2017 Share Posted 24 May , 2017 On 5/13/2017 at 16:17, eparges said: ... Hi, sorry to barge in, but 'best I've ever seen'....Your 'Beilpicke'-carrier is...well, decide for yourself: * this type was introduced in 1909..so the 1907 marking can't be correct (which in form, lettering is allready wrong) * closure strap replaced by buckle/strap * helve extention removed * the carrying straps are replaced * rivets indicate a wartime production... if the 'modifications' are old, it's probably an ex-bulgarian army stock, turn up regularly...And to be precise: its not a 'Pioneers' tool, but standard infantry tool, I believe 24 were distributed within a company. Sorry for the, probable, disappointment... On 5/15/2017 at 13:47, trenchtrotter said: Detailed pics are hard to find however there is an image of a German Soldier with one on his belt in WW1 Infantry by Laurent Mirouze who is perhaps the foremost collector in France. ... That one has extension below carrier for head and is where the handle would slip into the loop at the bottom. Also the closure for the axe head is a stud like one in Eparges pic. ... All that said though it's my opinion only and I would have my doubts. The axe itself is nice. It is your item and if your ok with it that's all good. On 5/15/2017 at 14:53, Gunner Bailey said: I sometimes think there are too many experts in the world. ... I'm left with a well used and aged axe carrier and a lovely axe to go with it. If everything stops there, that's fine with me. I have been off in the UK and only now had a chance to look through my library to see what's what...Well, there does not seem to be a lot published on these... But, J.Sommers, The Imperial German Armies, vol 1., has two photographs of these in use, on page 242, and what is an actual example on p.243. And I can see where eparges is coming from... What eparges shows in no. 7 (and TT draws attention to) is what Sommer's book also shows, and a crucial feature it shares with those in Sommer's book is the long extension for for the 'helve' loop, in fact, the loop for the bayonet scabbard to fit into - there is no evidence that one ever was fitted to GB's example, which doesn't mean that it can be a 'modified' version'! Except that, according to Sommers, the double belt strap was introduced in 1914, which does not fit the 1907 date... . Eparges' comments re: the buckle-fastener are also valid, on the basis of the photographs in Sommers' book... To which I would add that the axehead pocket is less deep on the ones shown by Sommers... So, it looks to me - on the basis of what little I have learnt - to be a variation 'on a theme', of unknown origin and possibly / probably a suspect date also, but nice to have whatever it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 24 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 24 May , 2017 Hi Trajan Thanks for your comments. The carrier certainly has never had the extension with the helve/ bayonet loop. That version is certainly a different type and clearly for a combat situation. I have not discounted the fact that the carrier may be from a civilian or semi military organisation such as the Police. The Kaiser's Germany was full of uniformed officials and the axe carrier could easily have been issued for that purpose. Not army at all. In the UK the Navy always does things differently and maybe the Kaiser's navy did as well. Could this be Navy issue where bayonets were less needed. Either way it's clear that it fits the axe like a glove and was clearly meant for it. The leather is aged and cracked in some places. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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