A challenge to forum

[Desmond7]

Dear Forum members ....

For some time, a loose grouping of forum friends have been discussing a large scale project which would have benefits for all.

In basic terms, the project would entail the in-depth documentation of a battle which, for many of us, was our 'introduction' to the subject of the Great War.

I refer of course to the Battle of the Somme (July - November 1916 actions).

It is apparent that many of us have performed worthwhile research on individual units/sectors of the battlefield. That information is without doubt searchable to some degree on this forum, but would it not be worthwhile to collate this material and produce it in a 'one stop shop' format?

Thus, starting from the opening bombardment, through the first day and onwards through the various actions, it should be possible to compile the most comprehensive and detailed day-by-day/week-by-week account of the fighting.

I must stress that this is a 'taste and try' post to guage members' reactions. I must also stress that this is Chris Baker's site and thus his permission would be vital.

Please be frank in your replies. Is there merit in this suggestion and, more importantly, is it 'do-able'?

Des

[andigger]

I think this would be a great collaborative international effort. Although the knowledge about the Somme I would bring to the table would be pitiful in comparison to others I would bring a great passion and enthusiasim to add more than my two cents to the effort.

Count me in for either the historic research or max-ing out the benefits of technology in the effort.

Andy

[Paul Reed]

Really nice idea Desmond, but what you are proposing is a major project and with all things like this people can flag and the whole thing falls apart. It would also take up a lot of everyones time - especially yours for proposing it!

To some extent this has been covered in Chris McCarthy's 'The Somme Day By Day' but not in as much detail as you propose.

If I can help let me know, but time (lack of) stops me from being involved on a major basis.

I would recommend that if this goes ahead you get your own webspace to maximise the number of people who visit the results.

Bon chance!

[steve fuller]

Totally worthwhile project IMHO - the amount of peeps who would benefit into the future alone makes it worthy, but getting it historically accurate (as it would be) & on record sounds excellent to me.

Afraid all I can really offer are selections from the 7th Bedfords exploits during the days in question & casualty lists recorded in their diaries, but theyre yours if needed Des.

But if you can gather a team to do it over many months & achieve it, then Id say go for it ...

[Chris_Baker]

How about a much less well documented period: say 1918?

[andigger]

Chris, not to go tit for tat, but my personal opinion is that the first 18 months of the war is much less documented than any other period.

Actually to carry the argument even further, such an effort, once completed might bring enough attention to the first phases of the war that it would become obvious to all why the Hohenzollern Redoubt shouldn't be a rubish tip.

The passion in my contribution is the effort not necessarily the specific action or time period of the war covered.

Andy

[bedfordyeoman]

All,

Agree with Chris here, if it is to be attempted at all. Somme 1916 has been done to death and, seems to me, has acquired a position in folklore which it doesn't deserve (like a number of other British battles !). I'm always stirred by Hill 60 in April 1915 but others will have their favourites.

I think the idea needs exploring in terms of what, how, when and by whom all this is going to be achieved. A small project might be sensible with a view to something on a larger scale at a later date.

All the best

David

[armourersergeant]

Des,

I think that the project has some merit, but only if you can agree with the contributors that one man/woman has the editorial say. It can in collaboration become a bone of contention as to what goes in and where!

If its any help i could give some back ground work of 7th corps through my research with General Sir T D O Snow. That said like others i think that other areas may be of more worthwhile endevours.

If the intent is to highlight an area that needs it then there are perhaps areas that get less page space. Or atleast that get much 'air time' yet say very little.

Good idea if you can get the commitment, but as stated you need to be sure of your fellow contributors and the time they are to give. Also as i can be on occasions, some contributors may not be upto the grammar/ narrative part. It would take a strong arm to control and edit accordingly!

regards

Arm.

[Desmond7]

More opinions please ... this thread is a mere child.

I am personally confident that, as the project moved through each battlefield sector, the more people wth the relevant diaries, facts and opinions would come on board.

This forum has members with some marvellous enthusiasm to draw on. It also has a depth of research which can be exploited. It has members who are talented in many fields.

There is not a single obstacle which cannot be overcome.

In the past we've ALL griped about periods when the forum has hit doldrums ... me included. Here's a project which COULD be of major significance. Can we grasp it?

To Chris Baker - totally accept that other battles/actions deserve coverage. I'm 'up' for that too. 100%.

But I argue that the Somme is a battle which binds the vast majority on this forum together. If we can 'do' justice to July-November 1916 .... I see no reason why it cannot continue.

This forum is the ideal sounding board/discussion forum for such a project.

Des

[John_Hartley]

Des

Without wishing to be a killjoy here, but I foresee 'orribly big difficulties.

The Somme has been narratively done to death (no pun intended) in my view and I'm not sure what the targetted purpose of the exercise would be.

Many of us will have done some form of research about the period, but this is going to be very varied in time-period or usable quality. For example, a lot of people may well have acquired the War Diary of a particular battalion for the day on which their relative was killed - but, as such, it doesnt tell much of a tale.

Similarly, several of us may have written up "our stories" of the researched men on war memorials - but my writing style is different from someone else, whose writing style is different from another, etc. It sounds like a sub-editors nightmare to bring it into one product.

That said, I'm happy for you to blag any part of 17/Manchester article on Hellfire Corner (so long as I get a credit).

John

[NIGEL]

Desmondo

Why not do the 25th, that would be a challenge, and nobody has done it before and very unique----------do you want me to shut up now ???

[Desmond7]

Right, I'm throwing the dummy out!

So I'm here to fight the corner ... John makes all the points well.

My main point remains .... what happens when we put all those little scraps of war diaries and statistics and faces and names and experiences into a 'Somme' folder.

It becomes a big picture.

John is also hitting nails on the head when he mentions his piece on Hellfire Corner ... how many others have 'written up' their own research? John has put his on the line .. it's up there for people to read. That takes cojones.

John has given permission for 'blag' of that piece ... exactly what I'm talking about. Get all those yarns/facts together ... not just one diary here and one acount there. Put it all in the one basket?

Des

[RodB]

Rather than a detailed description of what happened, I consider more useful and informative these days is accounts which ask a questions and then attempt to answer the question. In the case of the Somme, to me these questions are :-

1. Were errors / failings at Loos rectified by 1/7/16 ? If not, which & why not ?

2. Was the need to relieve pressure on Verdun a major factor in the planning, and if so to what extent did it succeed (empirical evidence required). Would need to discuss Falkenhayn's plan to "bleed the FrencH at Verdun rather than take it.

3. Peculiar psychology of generals apparently ignoring photo-recce evidence that artillery was not destroying defenses as planned. Analysis of which officers (battalion commanders ?) ordered men to advance during barrage. Was their prescience rewarded with promotion ?

4. Problems with shell fuses (explosions in barrel) leading to allegations that many were not set. Analysis of shell problems in general. Shells fired did not equal damage done.

5. The significance of the German withdrawal to the Hindenburg line needs to be analysed.

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

From what I can see there is a great deal of information already out on the net, as well as many different approaches to this project. There are also many other areas of the war that could be looked at as many of the replies have mentioned.

What I see however is that Des has a particular interest in a division, the men who made up the battalions and the events that shaped their lives or in many cases their death. My interest overlaps this interest and as such I am going to work with him to provide a look at the so-called enemy accounts, the men in field grey that fought long and hard on 1 July including a number of Americans who felt strongly wnough to travel to Germany and join the army.

I agree much has been written about the Somme, but much has not. There is room for other projects but the main people involved in any project need to buy into the other battle, events and units. I have not seen any other members consider such a project, whether on a single day or a series of events. Is there anyone out there with such an idea?

It looks as if this project will be implemented on a smaller scale, with fewer people. The pitfalls of writing technique, editing, etc. have all been considered and have been resolved at the present so it should not be a major issue.

I hope some of you will consider adding something to the mix, information on the 36th, 32nd, 49th Divisions on this day, 29th Division on the flank, etc. Individual accounts are important and need to be woven into the story.

I urge anyone even with a passing interest to get involved even if it is only a single item, a single person of interest, a relative, etc. Nothing is considered to be insignificant, no one will be looked at as an expert or an amateur and all will be given equal consideration in information, ideas, etc. In other words all are welcome, just take the step.

Hopefully after this is finished and the results can be assessed other areas of equal interest can be looked at as well. If someone does have interests of a particular day, person, etc. then why not look at the whole picture, both sides of the conflict, the entire day from midnight to midnight or a similar time frame. Just looking at small portions of the day or a very limited window of information could make the person miss an important point, some small item never considered before.

In getting back to the issue of 'been there, done that', are you sure? Are you positive? Consider the issue of friendly fire on 1 July when the Ulstermen ran into the British barrage just outside of the German lines near Stuff Redoubt (Middlebrook, First day on the Somme, P. 159 hardcover edition). I alway wondered why:

1. The shell fire fell on the British in front of the German wire and not on the German trenches?

2. Why did the artillery fire appear suddenly when the barrage had passed this area?

From what I have learned in the last few months of research is that this fire came from 3 batteries of German guns who had observed the advance and had been directed at the breakthrough and stopped them cold. While the men who were involved in the action all felt it was British artillery, the information presented and the circumstances support the German accounts. I can name the batteries, show you where they stood. If you went there today I suspect that traces of their existence would still be found, either on the surface or just below the top soil.

So is everything really written about this day, this battle? I doubt it highly. Sorry about the length of the post, I had some time and wanted to get my two cents in. I look forward to the rest of the comments and hopefully a few people willing to give us a few minutes of your time. Remember, give what you can in time or information, both are welcome and appreciated no matter how large or small. Everyone who participates will be given credit as a participant. Thanks for taking the time to read all of this.

Ralph

[Paul Hederer]

Ralph,

I would have to agree with some of the comments above--mainly that so much has already been written about the Somme. Why not put all the effort into breaking some new ground with a battle that has not been so much written about?

I, unfortunately, can be of no help--with school, work and family I don't have time to work on my own Verdun project.

Paul

[Aurel Sercu]

In case someone should consider the Ypres Salient : a similar project (one man, though) is about to start next month : sort of day-by-day account between Second (22 April 1915) and Third (31 July 1917) Ypres.

Aurel

[Paul Reed]

So is everything really written about this day, this battle? I doubt it highly.

I agree 100%. What differentiates an historian from an antiquarian (someone who just collects facts, as worthy as that may be) is accepting the last word on anything can never be written.

It is also too easy to think that because a lot of books have been written on the Somme, there is never room for anything else.

Some years ago I researched in detail the fighting at Beaumont Hamel on 1st July 1916. What I discovered is not explained in any other book on the battle, not even the BE title covering it. Why? Because most authors do not pursue sources, and look for easy ones close at hand - so the same material is trotted out again and again. The BE format really does not allow an author to pursue the subject to the full, but self-publishing on the Net does, so I suspect the results of this will be fascinating and possibly ground-breaking in some areas, especially as they have a German specialist like Ralph involved.

Because of my own committments I cannot be too deeply involved in this, and suspect I won't be alone. But we all have info, photos or maps of certain units, engagements and actions; and I am sure this is something we would all want to contribute to even in a minor war. I certainly will be.

[Desmond7]

Aurel - Re Ypres. We've already touched base on the period August 1-August 20, 1917 in this sector. It was a costly few weeks for Irish Regiments generally and 'another bad day' for my home town.

Anything I have for that period can be made available. It is, as you know mostly 'local stuff' but happy to put it forward.

Des

It does appear that there are many very reasonable reservations about a project on this scale. I thought there would have been a greater range of opinions expressed but such is life.

The number of postings in comparison to 'views' tells its own story.

As Ralph says, we have a common interest in one particular sector. I'm happy to work with him ... in fact I'm delighted to be in the situation.

Thanks for reading anyway. But I must admit that the idea has hardly set the world alight!

Des

What Ralph says in his post goes for me too.

[John W]

Des

I have just finished an MA dissertation on Leeds, The West Yorkshires and the Somme, you are welcome top use any of the material in that. I am intending to go back and do the research again without the time constraints. Let me know by e mail if you want the files.

John

[Robert Dunlop]

Des and Ralph

I think this is a great idea. Yes, one can imagine all sorts of issues will arise, not least the task of maintaining the information in a coherent form that is easily accessible. But these things can be overcome. Much has been written about the Somme but the contributions to this Forum illustrate how much more is still to be learned. If a lot of the work has been done, or is in the process of being researched, then stick with the Somme. Heaven knows, the energy needed to do justice to such a project, let alone 'finish' it, will require every ounce of enthusiasm. Better to go with a subject area that has already generated such passion. The contrast of the end result with the relative wealth of existing material will serve to illustrate how much is needed in other less well-known battles.

I'm a starter.

Robert

[spike10764]

Des

That said, I'm happy for you to blag any part of 17/Manchester article on Hellfire Corner (so long as I get a credit).

John

Des,

As John says above, you're welcome to use parts of my article on the Hellfire Corner site about Private John Farrer, 11th Battalion Border Regiment(Lonsdales), or from my personal webspace Click Here.

Please bear in mind that these are my own personal interpretations of events, based on research which may or may not be up to the standard some would expect, and I ain't a writer. It was a story I wanted to put down for my own personal (and family use) and has, and will ultimately, remain that way.

But I have no problems with it being used or partly used in the manner you describe.

Sorry I can't help more , but like most of us I have my own projects to work on which don't give me time for such a potentially large scale effort as this- it's a very good idea but I forsee lots of work for the person who takes it on his/her shoulders

[redbarchetta]

Des,

If I understand you correctly, the arguments about answering deep questions about the Somme, or any other period chosen misinterpret what you intend this to be, which is simply a repository of accounts of the period/sector/units. On this basis I think this is a worthy project - simply to collate some of the vast, detailed factual accounts that exist, particularly in Forum members' cupboards and bookcases, so allow access to all; this is what the internet is good at.

Key to its success, however, will be creating a usable structure right at the start. That structure can then be used for any (and eventually all) period of the war, in due course. In my head it would be simply a matrix, days across the top, units (down to the lowest common denominator) down the side. Within each 'cell' (sorry, I'm an accountant so Excel is second nature) would be the account of that unit on that day, sourced from whoever had that information. If the location of units is overlaid, then the data is seachable by day, unit and location, which is probably all we would ever need.

In theory, setting up this structure would mean contributors could put information into any cell - i.e. any unit, any point in the war, if they chose to and slowly a tapestry of information would start to appear...

Good grief, can you imagine the size of this project...???

Des, to quote a certain film, "If you built it, they will come...."

Would certainly need to be a separate site though - memory alone would cost poor Chris a fortune !

Big undertaking, Des... IMHO...but would provide a dramatically valuable and unique resource for many years to come...

Jim

[Desmond7]

Shall we gather at the River!!!?

I believe we first of all need a 'thread' in National/International Projects where the basic 'lines' of the project are properly laid down. We can then establish a pattern for posting; find out who already has items written up; availability of pics/maps/accounts etc.

If we can have a 'Somme Project - Basics' topic then we can arrange sensible chat; set out work-themes.

My thanks to ALL who contributed. This may take a while .. but hey, I ain't goin' nowhere. And, I believe it could be rolling fast.

Des

[stiletto_33853]

Des,

With you on this, you have the use of the research, dairies, Regimental Histories etc in my possession on this period. Just one or two things to add though. With the 90th aniversary of the more forgotten battles of say Loos, Aubers ridge, Neuve Chapelle & 2nd Ypres looming would/could this project have more of an impact covering a less written about battle. The Somme has/had far reaching consequences as we are all aware, but as a previous post pointed out were the lessons learnt from these earlier battles which could have helped avoid such a battles consequences. Certainly the Battalion losses in some of these battles matched the losses of the Somme although not over such a period.

Just a thought.

Andy

[Desmond7]

Andy - cheers mate. Absolutely agree.

There are guys on this forum who can 'walk' divisions/regts/battns/maybe even companies for all I know!! through WW1. Since this is the best WW1 forum on the planet.. and I mean that most sincerely folks .. we've got the people and we've got the interest.

Why not set up 'Battle/campaign' teams? Match what we can bring to what Chris Baker has already compiled for us .. follow the LLT timeline of battles?

Cheers, Des

and good point about anniversaries ... time to work towards them. I say yeah.